411
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
2 ATLANTA DIVISION
3
Jeffrey Michael Selman, )
4 et al., )
Plaintiffs, )
5 )
-vs- ) Civil Action
6 ) No. 1:02-CV-2325-CC
Cobb County Board of ) Volume III
7 Education, et al., ) Pages 411-518
Defendants. )
8
9
10
11 Transcript of the Bench Trial Proceedings
Before the Honorable Clarence Cooper
12 November 10, 2004
Atlanta, Georgia
13
14
15
16 APPEARANCES:
17 On behalf of the Plaintiffs: Michael Eric Manely, Esq.
Gerald Weber, Esq.
18 Margaret Fletcher Garrett, Esq.
19 On behalf of the Defendants: Ernest Linwood Gunn, IV, Esq.
Carol Callaway, Esq.
20
21
22
23
Amanda Lohnaas, RMR, CRR
24 Official Court Reporter
United States District Court
25 Atlanta, Georgia
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1 (Wednesday, November 10, 2004, 9:30 a.m.; Atlanta,
2 Georgia.)
3 THE COURT: Thank you. Good morning, please be
4 seated. Where is opposing counsel?
5 MR. GUNN: I think they gave up.
6 THE COURT: Okay, I am one minute early. Let them
7 know.
8 (Pause in the proceedings.)
9 THE COURT: Good morning. We are now ready to
10 resume.
11 Mr. Manely, call your next witness.
12 MR. MANELY: We would like to call Curt Johnston to
13 the stand.
14 THE COURT: Please come forward, sir. Have a seat in
15 the witness box. Please step up, face me, and raise your right
16 hand.
17 CURTIS L. JOHNSTON,
18 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
19 follows:
20 THE COURT: Thank you, please be seated. And speak
21 into the mike as you're testifying and talk loud enough so that
22 we all can hear your testimony.
23 THE WITNESS: All right. Can you hear me now?
24 THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Manely, your witness.
25 MR. MANELY: Thank you, Your Honor.
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MANELY:
3 Q. Mr. Johnston, would you please state your name for the
4 record?
5 A. Curtis L. Johnston.
6 Q. And what do you do for a living, sir?
7 A. I'm a commodity broker in the wholesale peanut business.
8 Q. Commodities broker in the wholesale peanut business?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. You're a very valuable man in the state of Georgia?
11 A. It's a very popular crop in Georgia.
12 Q. I understand it's second only to poultry?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. I understand that you are on the board?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. When did you take your seat on the board?
17 A. March of 1997.
18 Q. And why March of 1997? The reason why I say that is we've
19 heard all the other board members talking about they came on
20 board in January 1 of --
21 A. There was a resignation from the board so there was an
22 open election to fill an unexpired term.
23 Q. Why did you run for the board?
24 A. Well, my children had just graduated from high school and
25 gone off to college and I had the choice of being a couch
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1 potato or finding something interesting to do and this looked
2 like a good opportunity.
3 Q. Has it been something interesting to do?
4 A. I've enjoyed it very much.
5 Q. I understand that not only have you served on the board,
6 you've also served as the board chair?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And were you the board chair when the textbook adoption
9 was being considered?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. When did you become the board chair?
12 A. I'm not real good with dates but I believe it was 2002.
13 It might have been 2001.
14 Q. Okay. What month, do you recall? That might help us.
15 A. That always starts in January. There's a new board chair
16 every year and it always starts in January.
17 Q. We know Mr. Tippins is the board chair now, right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. So when did you step down? Was it Mr. Tippins that came
20 up next?
21 A. No. There was another person in between, Johnny Johnson.
22 Q. Okay. I guess suffice to say you were board chair, as
23 best you recall, when the textbooks were being considered by
24 the board?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. When the discussion about the sticker took place?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. A little later on when the discussion about the policy
4 took place?
5 A. I believe I was still the chair at that time, yes.
6 Q. And when you all voted on the policy you were still board
7 chair --
8 A. Right.
9 Q. -- is that right? I understand that the curriculum that
10 you all teach in the Cobb County classrooms is mandated by the
11 state board of education; is that right?
12 A. There is a state curriculum that we teach. We also add
13 things to do it if we think they're useful for our students.
14 Q. Okay. You cannot subtract from the curriculum; is that
15 right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And you're required to teach that curriculum, at least; is
18 that right?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. But you all can add to it?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And you do assume that evolution is a part of the state's
23 curriculum; is that right?
24 A. I believe that's correct, yes.
25 Q. I mean, you haven't had the opportunity to read the
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1 state's curriculum but as best you know it is?
2 A. Only by hearsay I believe that it is, yes.
3 Q. Now, we already covered this, but you were the board chair
4 at the time of the adoption of the text and the disclaimer?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. I understand that the issue of evolution and creationism
7 conflict came up when the board was considering the adoption of
8 the new textbooks?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And some parents had come in and complained about the
11 textbook adoption; is that right?
12 A. That's right. We put the textbooks out for parent review.
13 There were three different textbook series that we looked at
14 before we chose the final one. And when the parents read the
15 textbooks they saw some things they didn't like and they came
16 in to complain about them.
17 Q. We're talking about three different textbook series, I
18 understand, and eventually it was 13 total textbooks that you
19 all put the sticker in?
20 A. I'm not familiar with that number, but if that's correct
21 I'll accept that.
22 Q. Okay. I understand that parents coming in and complaining
23 thought that teaching evolution from the textbooks was a very
24 one-sided view; is that right?
25 A. That was the testimony they gave in our open sessions,
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1 yes.
2 Q. They also, from what we have seen, submitted lots of
3 petitions. I think one petition was 2300 signatures; is that
4 right?
5 A. I don't remember that one specifically but I've been told
6 that they did, yes.
7 Q. And a lot of parents wrote to the board?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You guys got letters?
10 A. Letters and e-mails, yes.
11 Q. You got letters from creation scientists and intelligent
12 design advocates; is that right?
13 A. Got them from people all over the country.
14 Q. Got a lot of stuff from the Discovery Institute supporting
15 intelligent design; is that right?
16 A. Books, videotapes, all kinds of things, yes.
17 Q. So these parents, anyway, didn't think that teaching one
18 side of this controversy was a fair presentation of the
19 theories of origin, did they?
20 A. They didn't think it was fair and balanced, that's right.
21 Q. Basically, the parents were unhappy that you all were
22 teaching only evolution and nothing else so far as origin of
23 the species is concerned?
24 A. That's my understanding, yes.
25 Q. Their complaints were that the texts taught only evolution
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1 and did not allow for any alternate versions of how life began?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. I understand you all listened to what the parents had to
4 say?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then you discussed whether there was anything the
7 board could do to address the parents' issues; is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And as a result of discussing whether there was anything
10 the board could do to address the parents' issues, you all came
11 up with the disclaimer?
12 A. That was the idea, yeah.
13 Q. Now if I understand correctly, the board did not explore
14 the possibility of teaching other theories of origin; is that
15 right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. At least not in the sense of what you mean by teaching?
18 A. Exactly.
19 Q. But the board did discuss extensively teachers discussing
20 other theories of origin?
21 A. What we were concerned about was that in the teaching of
22 evolution there would inevitably be questions from students
23 about their personal beliefs and other issues relative to
24 evolution and we were trying to lay a foundation, a framework
25 that teachers could operate comfortably within.
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1 Q. I had seen you, and this happens with many witnesses,
2 before you gave me your explanation I saw you nodding your
3 head, and the problem is the court reporter takes down yeses
4 and nos, it's not a video thing.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. So when I was asking you the board did discuss teachers
7 discussing other theories of origin, would that be yes --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- and then the explanation that you gave? And as you
10 understand it, there is a difference between teaching and
11 discussion in the way that you use those terms?
12 A. In my understanding that's correct, yes.
13 Q. Do I understand that you consulted your attorney and asked
14 if there was any language that would address the complaining
15 parents' concerns?
16 A. Yeah. We were trying to see if we could figure out some
17 way to smooth the waters a little bit.
18 Q. And that would also accomplish the board's objectives?
19 A. Exactly.
20 Q. Do I understand correctly that you didn't personally do
21 any research on this issue outside of the board sessions?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Do I understand correctly that you don't remember talking
24 to anybody personally outside of the board sessions?
25 A. Not to my recollection, no.
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1 Q. Do I understand, sir, that you have no background,
2 education or experience in evolution?
3 A. Just high school and college biology, that's all.
4 Q. Sir, you did receive a packet of material from the
5 Discovery Institute; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. I think it also included a pro intelligent design book
8 called Icons of Evolution?
9 A. I don't remember the title but I did get some books from
10 them.
11 Q. And I believe at some point you did discuss the matter
12 pending before the board with Mr. West of the Discovery
13 Institute?
14 A. West? I don't remember a conversation with him. Are you
15 sure it wasn't an e-mail or something?
16 Q. Let me show you, sir, what I have marked Defendants' --
17 excuse me, Plaintiffs' Exhibit 76 and it is an e-mail to you,
18 is it not?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And it's an e-mail from John West?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And it's dated September 5, '02?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall receiving this e-mail now that you've had a
25 chance to take a look at it?
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1 A. Yeah, I do because I remember the reference to the
2 Santorum language in the conference report. I probably
3 wouldn't remember it if it hadn't been for that.
4 MR. MANELY: Your Honor, we would tender 76.
5 MR. GUNN: I object. We --
6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you object?
7 MR. GUNN: I object. Not only was it not in the
8 pretrial order, but we reached a stipulation that certain items
9 could be introduced, as you recall, yesterday.
10 THE COURT: This was not included?
11 MR. MANELY: It is.
12 MR. GUNN: I assume it's included but my
13 understanding was the reason we were stipulating was to avoid
14 going through with each of the board members all the items that
15 they had received. And if we're going to go into all the
16 correspondence they've received I think that there's no need
17 for the stipulation to put all that into evidence.
18 MR. MANELY: I think I can respond to that well
19 enough. There are volumes of documents that the board received
20 and we are not going through those documents. Specifically
21 with regard to this witness, I intend on going through very few
22 documents, perhaps as few as two, that this witness had
23 personal involvement with.
24 For example, in this document Mr. West begins -- and
25 this is the point of this document -- "Thanks for taking my
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1 phone call earlier today." So this document establishes that
2 he did have the opportunity to have a personal conversation
3 with this gentleman from the Discovery Institute.
4 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the objection. Go
5 ahead.
6 Q. (By Mr. Manely) You heard what I was going to ask you
7 about that. The first sentence there, "Thanks for taking my
8 phone call earlier today," does that help you recall that you
9 did in fact talk with the Discovery Institute about this issue?
10 A. Yeah, it does, as a matter of fact.
11 Q. Now, at some point the administration did recommend other
12 language instead of the language that's in the disclaimer; is
13 that right?
14 A. I remember that, yes.
15 Q. And you remember that the board rejected that language?
16 A. We discussed it and decided we wanted to stay with the
17 original language.
18 THE COURT: So these suggestions followed the
19 original language that you all adopted?
20 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 Q. (By Mr. Manely) The board's disclaimer says: "Evolution
23 is a theory, not a fact;" is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you hold the opinion that evolution is not a fact?
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1 A. Not in my understanding of what a fact is, no. A fact to
2 me is something that can be replicated, repeated through
3 experiments and come up with the same result. I'm not aware
4 that anybody has replicated evolution, but maybe they have and
5 I just don't know.
6 Q. And, again, we've established that you haven't looked
7 into -- you haven't researched this issue particularly?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Okay. To say that evolution is a theory and not a fact is
10 an assertion, is it not?
11 A. Define "assertion."
12 Q. I am making a statement that evolution is not a fact.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. It's a particular point of view, isn't it?
15 A. I guess, yeah.
16 Q. To say that evolution should be carefully considered and
17 no other theories carefully considered is also an assertion,
18 isn't it?
19 A. Actually, I think all theories should be carefully
20 considered but we only addressed this particular one.
21 Q. The board only wanted -- well, the board only addressed
22 evolution, that issue be critically considered, didn't it?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. It says -- it doesn't say to students in any other subject
25 in science that they should critically consider those issues,
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1 does it?
2 A. The sticker does not say that, that's correct.
3 Q. And the board doesn't say outside the realm of science, in
4 any other subject that's taught in any Cobb classroom anywhere
5 in all the schools that are in Cobb that the student should
6 critically consider any other issue, does it?
7 A. We've not said that publicly, no.
8 THE COURT: Why was evolution singled out, in your
9 opinion?
10 THE WITNESS: Because those parents came to us and we
11 were trying to address their specific issue. It's not -- it's
12 not something we started; it's something they started.
13 Q. (By Mr. Manely) So when the Cobb school board said that
14 it wanted students to critically consider evolution, in the
15 textbook, they've got -- I'm holding Defendants' Exhibit 4, do
16 you recognize this?
17 A. Do you want to take that back?
18 Q. Sure, thank you. Defendants' Exhibit 4, is that one of
19 the texts that you all adopted?
20 A. Actually, I haven't seen it.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. That's the first time I've seen it.
23 Q. All right. Looking on the inside cover there right as you
24 open up the front page, you see the Cobb school board
25 disclaimer there?
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1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Okay. So where you're talking about students -- where
3 you're talking about students critically considering evolution
4 in the context of this textbook --
5 A. I'm sorry, when you turned your back I couldn't hear you.
6 Q. I'm sorry, you're talking about the students critically
7 considering evolution in the context of this textbook?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Critically considered against what?
10 MR. GUNN: Sorry, Your Honor, that's a misuse of the
11 language, I believe.
12 THE COURT: I'm going to let him answer the question.
13 Do you understand the question?
14 THE WITNESS: I think I understand his question.
15 I'll try to answer it, if it doesn't turn out to be what you're
16 asking we can always try it again.
17 In any learning situation you can take what is given
18 to you at face value, or you can think about whether what
19 you've been told makes sense or not in the context of the way
20 it was presented. That would be my definition of critical
21 thinking.
22 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Okay. So when the students learned the
23 material in this text, much of which has to do with evolution
24 as fact and evolution as scientific theory, a very high form of
25 certainty of knowledge in science, when you're saying you want
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1 students to critically consider this information, you aren't
2 thinking that you want them to compare it against any other
3 information? Is that what you're telling us?
4 A. We're not presenting them any other information, but if
5 they have other information I think it would be appropriate for
6 them to ask that question.
7 Q. Okay. And that's what you're talking about when you say
8 critically considered?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right, so you all adopted the disclaimer?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. And determined that it should be put in however many
13 science textbooks it wound up getting put in?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. And every Cobb student that takes a class on evolution
16 now, when they open up the cover of their textbook, they see
17 the statement of the Cobb school board inside that textbook?
18 A. That's what I've been told.
19 Q. That lets the student know what the position of the Cobb
20 school board is?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. A little later on you all adopted a policy; is that right?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And you were still board chair at that time?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And as board chair, I believe that you read a statement to
2 the public during a board meeting; is that right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. There was a lot of contention going on at that time; is
5 that right?
6 A. We were the middle of the circus, three-ring circus, yeah.
7 Q. I recall we had buses out there, we had evangelists, we
8 had people with posters.
9 A. Yep.
10 Q. It was quite a to-do. And if I understand, if I remember
11 correctly, it was September 26th of 2002 that that meeting was
12 held?
13 A. I'm not very good with dates so I'll take your word for
14 it.
15 Q. And you read a statement; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 17.
18 Is this the statement that you read to the public as Cobb
19 school board chair?
20 A. It appears to be.
21 THE COURT: In context, was this after the adoption
22 of the sticker, prior to or when? This statement was after the
23 adoption of the sticker?
24 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
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1 Q. (By Mr. Manely) I may have missed, is that the statement
2 that you read?
3 A. It appears to be, yes.
4 Q. In your statement you said: "We do not expect teachers to
5 teach creationism."
6 THE COURT: I'm assuming this has been admitted
7 without objection? Tender it first.
8 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir, we would tender 17.
9 MR. GUNN: No objection.
10 THE COURT: Okay, now you can go ahead and read the
11 contents. Go ahead.
12 MR. MANELY: Thank you.
13 THE COURT: It's admitted without objection.
14 Q. (By Mr. Manely) In your statement you said: "We do not
15 expect teachers to teach creationism." Is that right?
16 A. That's correct, that fits in with my difference between
17 teaching and discussion, yes.
18 Q. In your statement you said: "Our intention is to promote
19 a broad-based science curriculum which will acknowledge that
20 there are differences of opinion about the origin of life." Is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, those differences of opinion about the origin of life
24 include evolution, creation science, and intelligent design, do
25 they not?
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1 A. And probably many others, too, yes.
2 Q. But at least those three?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. In your statement back here that you read to the public as
5 school board chair, you said: "The first action we took which
6 was criticized was the decision to place the sticker in the
7 science textbooks which advised" -- let me start over because I
8 want to make sure that I'm saying it correctly.
9 In your statement you said: "The first action we
10 took which was criticized was the decision to place a sticker
11 in science textbooks which advised students that evolution was
12 a scientific theory, not a fact."
13 Is that correct, you said that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, that is a misstatement, isn't it?
16 A. In what way?
17 Q. The sticker, the disclaimer, and let me pull Defendants' 4
18 again for you because I don't mean for it to be a memory test,
19 looking at the disclaimer on the inside cover, it says
20 "Evolution is a theory, not a fact," doesn't it?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. So where you said to the public "scientific theory,
23 not a fact," that was a misstatement, correct?
24 A. I'm sorry, I don't follow you. In both cases it says it's
25 a theory. This says "scientific theory," this says "a theory."
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1 I don't understand your question.
2 Q. Okay, I'll see if I can help here. In your statement, am
3 I quoting it correctly: "First action we took which was
4 criticized was the decision to place a sticker in science
5 textbooks which advised students that evolution was a
6 scientific theory, not a fact"?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And the disclaimer actually says "is a theory, not a
9 fact."
10 A. Oh, so the word "scientific" is missing.
11 Q. Exactly.
12 A. Oh, okay.
13 Q. So it's true that your statement to the public was a
14 misstatement?
15 A. Not exactly the same, that's correct.
16 Q. Okay. Do I gather correctly from your response that you
17 aren't familiar with the significant difference in scientific
18 parlance between what theory is and scientific theory is?
19 A. I guess I'm not.
20 Q. So in the sticker you do not elevate evolution to the
21 haughty realm of scientific theory, do you?
22 A. I would have been perfectly happy to have the word
23 "scientific" in the sticker if somebody had put it in there but
24 nobody did.
25 Q. In your statement you go on: "This sticker was simply to
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1 make students aware that a scientific dispute exists."
2 I don't mean for it to be a memory test, it's in your
3 statement.
4 A. No, no, no, that's correct, okay.
5 Q. So the idea with the sticker was to make students aware
6 that a scientific dispute exists?
7 A. I think there was more to it than that but that's the
8 reason I stopped and thought.
9 Q. I'm sorry?
10 A. I said I think there's more to it than that, that's the
11 reason I stopped to thought -- to think before I answered your
12 question. That was not the only reason we did it.
13 Q. Okay. Well, in your statement you say the sticker -- you
14 don't say the sticker was complex, you say the sticker was
15 "simply to make students aware that a scientific dispute
16 exists," correct?
17 A. Okay, all right.
18 Q. The scientific dispute you're talking about is based upon
19 the differences of opinion expressed between evolution,
20 creation science, and intelligent design, correct?
21 A. Among others, yes.
22 Q. But at least those three?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. So as I understand it, teachers are permitted to not
25 teach, but discuss, as you mean that term, some of the
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1 controversies about the theories of origin?
2 A. Yes. And I think we have a regulation that defines how
3 they are to do that.
4 Q. And one of the alternate theories that teachers are
5 permitted to discuss is creation science?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. And another one of the alternate theories of evolution
8 that teachers were going to be permitted to discuss is
9 intelligent design?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. I want to make sure that I understand what you mean. You
12 don't want teaching on other theories of origin, right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. That is not what the board was endorsing; is that correct?
15 A. That's not part of the curriculum and we expect teachers
16 to teach the curriculum.
17 Q. Okay. At least you don't want them teaching in the sense
18 of what you understand teaching to be?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. The board wants teachers discussing other theories of
21 origin, correct?
22 A. Actually, we don't encourage them to discuss it. What we
23 were trying to do was to not discourage them. In other words,
24 let's take a hypothetical classroom situation, a child asked a
25 question. What we don't want the teacher to say is, I'm sorry
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1 we can't talk about that. That was the purpose.
2 Q. All right, so it's okay to discuss, just not teach?
3 A. As long as the student originates the question, that's
4 correct.
5 Q. Okay. And the purpose of the sticker was to make the
6 students aware about that scientific dispute, correct? I'm
7 looking at your statement.
8 A. I think most of them are already aware of it but I'll say
9 yes to that.
10 Q. All right. There is a difference between teaching and
11 discussion in the way that you use those terms, isn't there?
12 A. Very much so, yes.
13 Q. What you mean by "teaching" is what's in the
14 state-mandated curriculum?
15 A. Plus what we add to it, that's correct.
16 Q. And what you mean by "discussion" is everything else?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, these discussions create wonderful, teachable
19 moments, don't they?
20 A. I hope so.
21 Q. The discussions are a perfect opportunity to talk about
22 why religion believes a particular way?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm sorry?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Like, for example, you would expect a teacher to respond
2 to a question from a student about, Why do I believe this way?
3 A. Well, the teacher doesn't know why the child believes that
4 way. No, I wouldn't expect them to answer that question.
5 Q. So you're telling me you would not, however, expect a
6 teacher to respond to a question from the class, from a student
7 about why do I believe differently, and that's what you meant
8 by discussion?
9 A. Well, you're picking words there but there's a difference
10 between "respond" and "answer." You know, "answer" would be to
11 answer the question why the child believes that way; "respond"
12 would be to say science cannot prove what you believe. Do you
13 see the difference between "respond" and "answer"?
14 Q. Do you remember when you gave your deposition, sir?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that was back in June of last year; is that right?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And you were under oath then, as you are now; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you please turn to your deposition, page 24?
22 THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Gunn?
23 MR. GUNN: Your Honor, I have the same objection I've
24 made before. As I understand his testimony, it's entirely
25 consistent with what he said in his deposition.
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1 THE COURT: Let me find out, then. I understand your
2 position. You're saying it's not impeachment, then?
3 MR. GUNN: That's correct, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Okay, let me hear it. We don't have a
5 jury in this case.
6 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Are you on page 24?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why don't you begin with the sentence that begins on line
9 3, your testimony there.
10 A. "I would, however, expect a teacher to respond to a
11 question from the class from a student about why do I believe
12 differently or why does he believe differently or that's what I
13 meant by discussion."
14 MR. GUNN: Your Honor, under the rule of
15 completeness, I'd ask that the witness be allowed to read the
16 sentence immediately preceding the one he just read.
17 THE COURT: Thank you, go ahead.
18 THE WITNESS: "I would not expect a teacher to teach
19 anything except evolution."
20 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Okay, and again for the rule of
21 completeness, why don't you read the entire answer which begins
22 on page 23, line 25, and go ahead and take it down through the
23 bottom of line 8 on page 24 so that the judge knows what your
24 entire response is.
25 A. Do you want me to read the question, too, or just the
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1 answer?
2 Q. Just the answer.
3 A. The answer is: "Sure, I consider teaching whatever the
4 curriculum is. Anything beyond that is discussion. I would
5 not expect a teacher to teach anything except evolution. I
6 would, however, expect a teacher to respond to a question from
7 the class from a student about why do I believe differently or
8 why does he believe differently or that's what I meant by
9 discussion."
10 Q. Now, you're aware of science teachers in some contexts
11 attempting to present both sides of the evolution-creation
12 controversy to their students, aren't you?
13 A. I'm not personally aware of that. I may have read of it
14 somewhere.
15 Q. You're not aware of even one?
16 A. You mean have I actually had that experience?
17 Q. Have you had it reported to you of a teacher intending to
18 teach both sides of the evolution-creationist controversy?
19 A. I believe there was one teacher that we had a problem
20 with, yeah, but I don't remember her name or what school she
21 went to.
22 Q. Okay. Let me hand you what's been marked Plaintiffs'
23 Exhibit 64 and ask you if that --
24 THE COURT: Excuse me.
25 MR. GUNN: I object. This is another document that
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1 was not on the pretrial order, is not included in the
2 stipulation.
3 THE COURT: Let me ask you this, you're using the
4 document just to refresh his memory or what?
5 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: I'll let him do that just to refresh his
7 memory. It's not being entered into evidence, it's being used
8 just to refresh his memory. Go ahead, Counselor.
9 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Handing you what's been marked
10 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 74, have you had a chance to read that
11 over?
12 A. I've read about half of it, hold on.
13 (Pause.)
14 THE WITNESS: I don't specifically remember it. As
15 you know, we got hundreds and hundreds of e-mails.
16 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Okay, you don't specifically recall --
17 A. Not this one, no.
18 Q. Okay, so the name Charmagne Quenan doesn't particularly
19 come to mind?
20 A. Actually, if I remember, I'm surprised -- if that was sent
21 to me I would be surprised I didn't remember that name, it's a
22 very unusual name, but I don't remember it.
23 Q. It is a very unusual name. So that's not the teacher
24 you're talking about that you all had to get on to because she
25 wanted to present both sides of --
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1 A. I don't think so. It could have been but I don't think
2 so.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. The name doesn't ring a bell. How is that?
5 Q. Handing you what's been marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 75, ask
6 if you can identify your e-mail from the top there? Do you see
7 that, from Curt Johnston?
8 A. Uh-huh, yes.
9 Q. Okay. And that's your e-mail there?
10 A. It looks like it. I'm reading it, yeah.
11 Q. All right.
12 MR. MANELY: Your Honor, we tender Plaintiffs' 75.
13 THE COURT: This e-mail from him to whom?
14 MR. MANELY: To a lady named Gina Stubbart.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Gunn, do you have any
16 problems? If so, state your objection.
17 MR. GUNN: I just received this, I'd like a minute.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: This shows you how lousy my memory is,
20 doesn't it?
21 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Do you remember now?
22 THE COURT: His memory has been refreshed. Hold on
23 one moment, Mr. Johnston, wait until counsel --
24 THE WITNESS: I remember sending the letter to --
25 THE COURT: Mr. Johnston, hold on one moment.
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1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
2 (Pause.)
3 THE COURT: Having read the document, his memory has
4 been refreshed but I didn't want to proceed until I heard from
5 defense counsel.
6 MR. GUNN: I have no objection.
7 THE COURT: It was used to refresh his memory. Go
8 ahead, your question now.
9 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Okay, does that help you recall that you
10 had received the e-mail that you looked at as Plaintiffs'
11 Exhibit 74? Do you see that down at the bottom?
12 A. Honestly, I don't remember, no, I don't. Obviously I did,
13 unless it's a Xeroxed copy or something but I don't remember
14 it.
15 Q. I'll be happy to -- there's Plaintiffs' 74 again, compare
16 it against the language there at the bottom.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. Yeah, they match.
20 MR. MANELY: And, Your Honor, we had tendered
21 Plaintiffs' 75 because we want to talk about it. I didn't hear
22 whether or not it was admitted versus just being used to
23 refresh --
24 THE COURT: Early on I think we did.
25 MR. GUNN: This is 75?
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1 MR. MANELY: This is 75.
2 MR. GUNN: No objection.
3 THE COURT: Go ahead.
4 Q. (By Mr. Manely) All right, so if I understand correctly,
5 there was a person named Stubbart. I don't know if you know
6 who she is or not.
7 A. I've never met the lady.
8 Q. Person named Stubbart who wrote to you enclosing the
9 exhibit that you have up there, Plaintiffs' Exhibit 74; is that
10 right?
11 A. That appears to be the case, yeah.
12 Q. And so what we have is an Exhibit 74 in bold: "Science
13 teacher delighted with decision," correct?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. It proceeds: "As both a Cobb County science teacher and a
16 Cobb County parent, I applaud the board's decision because now
17 I can finally address the issue in my classroom. I would
18 rather present both sides in an open and honest discussion than
19 to have to tell the students, 'I would love to talk about that
20 but I can't.' Extremists aside, there is good science being
21 done on both sides of the evolution/creation fence."
22 Is that right?
23 A. That's what it says, yeah.
24 Q. And then Ms. Stubbart wrote to you and said,
25 "Mr. Johnston," I'm cutting down to the last paragraph on the
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1 first page, "I was shocked to see the following message posted
2 today on the AJC online forum for reaction to the Cobb school
3 board decision. What many Cobb parents feared would happen has
4 already begun. The floodgates are open for religion in science
5 class. How is the board going to protect the integrity of the
6 science curriculum?"
7 Is that right?
8 A. I'm beginning to understand how this worked. This came
9 off of a forum and Ms. Stubbart copied it and sent it on.
10 Q. To you?
11 A. Okay, so that makes sense because I didn't remember
12 getting the original e-mail. It wasn't an e-mail, it was
13 something posted on the forum somewhere. What was your
14 question again?
15 Q. Pardon?
16 A. What was your question again?
17 Q. Just am I correct in that's what it says?
18 A. I'm sorry, repeat the question please.
19 Q. Am I correct in that's what it says?
20 A. In what what says? The bottom paragraph, the middle
21 paragraph or the top paragraph?
22 Q. We haven't gotten to the top paragraph yet.
23 A. Okay, I've lost you, I don't know where you are. Start
24 over again.
25 Q. All right. The bottom one is apparently from a teacher
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1 saying she's looking forward to presenting both sides because
2 she contends there's good science being done on both sides of
3 the evolution/creation fence.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. The second one from Stubbart says she was shocked to see
6 this message and the floodgates have already opened; is that
7 right?
8 A. That's what it says, yeah.
9 Q. Okay. And then in your e-mail response you say: "You're
10 one of the very few people," very few people, "who has zeroed
11 in on exactly what we hoped to accomplish." Is that right?
12 A. That's what it says but that doesn't seem to make sense in
13 response to her e-mail. I'm perplexed by that.
14 MR. GUNN: I'd ask under the rule of completeness
15 that the full paragraph, which includes the statement, "We do
16 not expect teachers to teach creationism and religion has no
17 place in science" --
18 THE COURT: Granted, let him read it all.
19 MR. MANELY: You're talking about the Stubbart part?
20 MR. GUNN: Yeah.
21 MR. MANELY: Okay.
22 THE COURT: Go ahead.
23 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Are you there?
24 THE COURT: You can read it aloud, go ahead.
25 THE WITNESS: Where do you want me to start reading?
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1 Q. (By Mr. Manely) After "Mr. Johnston."
2 A. "Last night I was at the board meeting when you read the
3 board's press release that included the statements we do not
4 expect" -- I guess that's supposed to be teachers -- "to teach
5 creationism and religion has no place in science instruction.
6 I was shocked to see the following message posted today on the
7 AJC online forum for reaction to the Cobb school board
8 decision."
9 Do you want the next paragraph, too?
10 "What many Cobb parents feared would happen has
11 apparently already begun. The floodgates are open for religion
12 in science class. How is the board going to protect the
13 integrity of the science curriculum?"
14 Q. So how is the board going to protect the integrity of
15 science curriculum?
16 A. It's pretty simple. We wrote a regulation that says what
17 you can do in class, and what this teacher says here does not
18 fit that regulation.
19 Q. So when you say, "You're one of the very few people who
20 have zeroed in on exactly what we hoped to accomplish" --
21 A. I was referring to the first paragraph there, "We do
22 expect teachers to teach creationism and religion has no place
23 in science instruction."
24 Q. Now, you don't say exactly what we hoped to prohibit, the
25 teaching of, the presentation of evolution and creation, that's
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1 not the word you chose, is it?
2 A. No. I'm not sure what your point is, but no.
3 Q. Okay. And again, teaching is what the state mandates?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Discussion is everything else?
6 A. Yeah. And I would say instruction is also teaching.
7 Those terms are pretty synonymous.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Gunn?
9 MR. GUNN: If he's not concluded with his questioning
10 of the witness I would like to approach to discuss this
11 document.
12 THE COURT: Is that the document that has already
13 been admitted into evidence?
14 MR. GUNN: Yes, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Approach the bench one moment.
16 (Proceedings at bench.)
17 THE COURT: Let me see the document.
18 MR. GUNN: I was given that document just a few
19 minutes ago by opposing counsel and I was told that this was
20 part of the open records request that they wanted to
21 stipulate --
22 THE COURT: I thought I heard him say that.
23 MR. GUNN: -- to the whole thing.
24 MR. MANELY: No, no, no. You're confusing that with
25 the West letter, the Discovery letter. That was when we were
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1 talking about the records request.
2 MR. GUNN: Where did that come from?
3 MR. MANELY: That was the previous one.
4 MR. GUNN: I understood, when I sent it to --
5 THE COURT: Wait, wait, go ahead.
6 MR. MANELY: I understand, that came from
7 Ms. Stubbart.
8 MR. GUNN: Okay, where is the rest of it? And
9 where's the tag line that shows the date it was printed?
10 MR. MANELY: The date what was printed?
11 MR. GUNN: The date this document was printed.
12 MR. MANELY: This was printed last night, but it's
13 been kept electronically all this time and he testifies he
14 remembers it.
15 MR. GUNN: Well, where's the rest of the document?
16 MR. MANELY: I'm not sure what you mean by "the rest
17 of the document."
18 THE COURT: You're saying this is not the complete
19 document?
20 MR. GUNN: Well, it doesn't look complete. I mean,
21 it starts here and it looks like it's a line. He thinks is
22 part of a message board, which would mean that there were
23 documents in front of it and behind it. And usually when you
24 print something off of the Internet it tells you date and time.
25 MR. MANELY: You're misunderstanding what's going on
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1 here. If you read it, it explains it to you. This lady,
2 Ms. Stubbart, was on this online chat thing that the AJC does
3 and this was one of the things that was on there. This is what
4 she cut and pasted into her e-mail and sent to him and said
5 what are you going to do about it. And he said, well, this is
6 what we want to accomplish.
7 See what I'm saying? So the e-mails are here and
8 here and here. This is the online message part.
9 MR. GUNN: Again, I --
10 MR. MANELY: I understand what you're saying, if
11 you're suspicious about it --
12 MR. GUNN: Partly I thought this was what you were
13 presenting as part of our response to the open records.
14 MR. MANELY: That was just the West letter, the very
15 first one that you had objected to when I said I got one, maybe
16 two.
17 MR. GUNN: And I'd already -- I didn't object to the
18 admission but it was based on that understanding.
19 THE COURT: You misunderstood, okay. Well, now that
20 we're aware of this potential problem, next time let me know if
21 you are going to object for the reason you are now indicating.
22 I'm going to -- it's already been ruled in.
23 MR. GUNN: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: Thank you, Your Honor.
25 (Proceedings in open court.)
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1 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Manely.
2 MR. MANELY: Thank you, sir.
3 Q. (By Mr. Manely) Now, does Ms. Quenan -- do you still have
4 the e-mail in front of you?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. This Ms. Quenan that is expressing she's intending to
7 present the evolution/creation controversy to her students?
8 A. That's what she said but I would disagree with that.
9 Q. Okay. I'm sure you all shot her down pretty good, right?
10 I mean, you've had a stern behind-the-woodshed talking to?
11 A. I have no idea, that's not in my responsibility. Somebody
12 else would have to do that.
13 MR. MANELY: Thank you, nothing further, sir.
14 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Gunn?
15 THE WITNESS: Do you want these back?
16 MR. MANELY: You know, I really should.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. GUNN:
19 Q. Hi, Mr. Johnston.
20 A. Good morning for the third time.
21 Q. You said in your deposition you didn't expect anything
22 except evolution to be taught, correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Can you give the Court an idea of how many e-mails you
25 were getting on an average day in September 2002 about the time
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1 you made that statement?
2 A. It varied widely but probably anywhere from 15 to 30 a
3 day.
4 Q. And you're a school board member and you also have
5 full-time employment?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Did you remember this e-mail at all when --
8 A. Not until I saw it, no.
9 Q. Okay. Mr. Manely asked you a lot of questions about the
10 community involvement and the discussion about the text. You
11 had people in the public that commented about this that weren't
12 -- that were on the side of teaching creation science, didn't
13 you?
14 A. There were people on all sides of the issue, yeah.
15 Q. Okay, you had Mr. Selman show up at board meetings, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Do you remember a petition from Deborah Power?
18 A. Not specifically. Do you have it?
19 Q. I should have it. Did you review the texts in any detail?
20 A. No. First time I'd seen it was today.
21 Q. Did any of the individuals that commented on the text ask
22 that materials on intelligent design and creationism be added
23 to the curriculum as a supplement?
24 A. I believe that was one that was suggested, yes.
25 Q. And did the board approve that?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you give the Court some idea how many communications
3 you received in this time period concerning this issue?
4 A. I don't know, must have been somewhere around four, 500, I
5 guess.
6 Q. People that had a wide range of views, fair to say?
7 A. Oh, yeah.
8 Q. I'll show you what's been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 8.
9 Can you identify that?
10 A. I hate to say it but I honestly don't remember it.
11 Q. Okay. You got a fair quantity of information --
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. -- positive and negative and everywhere in between,
14 correct?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. You were asked -- do you still have Defendants' Exhibit 7,
17 your statement that you read?
18 A. I gave it back to him.
19 Q. Okay. You were asked some questions about this statement.
20 What was the purpose of reading this statement out loud?
21 A. There were all sorts of wild reports being printed in the
22 media that we felt we needed to come out with a statement to
23 clarify what we were actually trying to do because people were
24 attributing all sorts of motives to us that were not correct.
25 Q. And what was happening on September 26 at the time that
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1 you read this statement?
2 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
3 Q. Was there any other activity at that particular board
4 meeting, that particular board meeting when you read that
5 statement, do you recall?
6 A. I'm sure there were. I mean, we do a lot of things at our
7 board meeting but about the date, I don't remember. Do you
8 have an agenda?
9 Q. Well, I'll show you what's been marked as Defendants'
10 Exhibit 5, if you can identify that.
11 A. Yeah, that's the policy that we adopted that was mentioned
12 in the press release.
13 Q. And what's the date of the policy?
14 A. 9-26-02.
15 Q. Okay. Does that refresh your recollection about the
16 timing of the statement that you read?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. The same time?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Did you vote for the policy?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And was your statement intended to clarify what's in the
23 policy?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does the policy say anything about what the purpose of the
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1 policy is?
2 A. It says the educational philosophy is to provide a
3 broad-base curriculum, and it goes on from there, if that's
4 what you mean.
5 Q. Well, it specifically says, look at --
6 A. Oh, down here, the purpose of --
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. I'm sorry, the second paragraph. "The purpose of this
9 policy is to foster critical thinking among students, to allow
10 academic freedom consistent with legal requirements, to promote
11 tolerance and acceptance of diversity of opinions, and to
12 ensure a posture of neutrality towards religion."
13 Do you want me to read the whole thing?
14 Q. No, no. You say in the statement the sticker was not
15 intended to interject religion in a science instruction; is
16 that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Is the policy consistent with what you were trying to
19 accomplish when you voted for the sticker?
20 A. It's consistent with what I had in mind, yes.
21 Q. Does evolution instruction conflict with your own
22 religious beliefs?
23 A. No, it doesn't.
24 Q. When Mr. Manely is asking you about intelligent design,
25 creation science, and all the materials that you received from
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1 places like the Discovery Institute, did you read that
2 information in detail?
3 A. I skimmed some of it. I wouldn't say I read it in detail.
4 I probably read 10, 15 percent of it.
5 Q. Okay. Mr. West, I believe, you took a phone call from
6 him, he called you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In his correspondence that you were shown, he offered to
9 provide assistance to you in drafting a sticker and doing other
10 things that would help you. Did you take him up on any of
11 that?
12 A. No. I just referred him to our attorney's office.
13 Q. Did you vote for the regulation?
14 A. Yes, I -- well, there's no vote there but I accepted the
15 regulation, yes.
16 Q. You accepted it, right.
17 A. Which I thought was very good, by the way.
18 Q. Does the regulation do what you wanted --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- reflect what you wanted to happen in the classroom?
21 A. Exactly.
22 MR. GUNN: Nothing further.
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 Anything else from this witness, Mr. Manely?
25 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir.
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1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. MANELY:
4 Q. You voted for the disclaimer as well, did you not?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now, this Ms. Quenan's statement here on the AJC online
7 forum sent to you by Stubbart, when you received that, you sent
8 that on or what did you do with it?
9 A. Good question. I think I answered Ms. Stubbart but I
10 don't think I did anything else with it.
11 MR. MANELY: Thank you.
12 MR. GUNN: Nothing further.
13 THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you very much.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
15 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
16 MR. MANELY: Your Honor, we have a procedurally
17 unusual situation to take up with you.
18 THE COURT: Sure.
19 MR. MANELY: Inasmuch as rebuttal witnesses are
20 normally called after the defendants' case, but that's usually
21 because they are being called to impeach defendants' witnesses,
22 we have located a rebuttal witness late yesterday, and that is
23 Ms. Quenan which we've just been talking about. We discovered
24 her yesterday and have brought her to court.
25 We discovered her only yesterday because, as Mr. Gunn
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1 pointed out, this e-mail sequence here in Plaintiffs' 75 was
2 not provided to us in open records. So we did not, through our
3 requests to the school board, have the opportunity to discover
4 that this exchange had, in fact, taken place with a member of
5 the school board. We only found it out from an interested
6 bystander, Ms. Stubbart, that all this had taken place.
7 So immediately we went out and we found Ms. Quenan.
8 Fortunately, the name is easy enough to track somebody down, it
9 wasn't Smith, and have brought her to court to address for the
10 Court that she wrote this section here that we're looking at,
11 "Science teacher delighted with decision," and that nobody from
12 the school board, administration, her school has said anything
13 to her about it at all. We would like to be able to present
14 her testimony at this time.
15 MR. GUNN: Your Honor, I guess my objection relates
16 to the fact that the -- apparently this document came from an
17 online correspondence. It's dated 2002. Obviously, it was
18 available well before the pretrial. There's been a series of
19 attempts to expand the scope of the litigation, expand beyond
20 what we have in the pretrial order in terms of witnesses, in
21 terms of the witness testimony. Some of the witnesses'
22 testimony that we've heard has been a little broader than I
23 think what was contemplated in the Court's recent order. And I
24 guess this could have been -- I know that the plaintiffs have
25 done an open record request as far as back as 2002 and I know
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1 that we responded to every one of them.
2 The recent open records request was only the last in
3 a long series of them. I think this document and this
4 information was available. I don't think I've ever seen it,
5 but it was obviously available to people on the AJC website
6 that wanted to obtain it. And I think I'd ask you to exclude
7 the witness on the basis that --
8 THE COURT: The document was admitted into evidence.
9 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir, it was.
10 THE COURT: I think the procedure, he just wants to
11 call this person in rebuttal now, rather than after your
12 presentation, I guess that's what you're asking the Court to
13 allow?
14 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: So that's the issue before the Court. Do
16 you want her to come forward now or would you rather her come
17 forward after you present the defendants' case in chief?
18 MR. GUNN: Now is satisfactory.
19 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
20 MR. GUNN: Now is fine.
21 THE COURT: Okay, let's bring her in now.
22 MR. MANELY: I'll go get her, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Sure.
24 Please step up, face me, and raise your right hand.
25 CHARMAGNE QUENAN,
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1 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
2 follows:
3 THE COURT: Thank you, please be seated. Make
4 yourself comfortable and please talk loud enough so that we all
5 can hear your testimony.
6 Mr. Manely, your witness.
7 MR. MANELY: Thank you, sir.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. MANELY:
10 Q. Would you please state your name for the record?
11 A. My name is Charmagne Quenan.
12 THE COURT: Spell your last name, please.
13 THE WITNESS: Q-u-e-n-a-n.
14 Q. (By Mr. Manely) I understand that you are a teacher at
15 Lindley --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- Middle School?
18 THE COURT: Excuse me, that's a middle school?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 Q. (By Mr. Manely) I understand you're a science teacher
21 there; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 74
24 and ask you if you can identify that document?
25 A. If I can identify what it was? I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
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1 Q. Yeah, does it look familiar to you?
2 A. Yes. It was something I posted to the AJC, I guess it was
3 like a bulletin board when they were -- when articles came out
4 about the change in Cobb County's policy concerning teaching of
5 evolution in class.
6 Q. Thank you. And did anyone from the school board, school
7 administration, or your school come to talk to you about this?
8 A. No.
9 MR. MANELY: Thank you. Nothing further, sir.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. GUNN:
12 Q. Hi, Ms. Quenan.
13 A. Hi.
14 Q. You say in your message there's good science being done on
15 both sides of the evolution/creation fence.
16 A. To the best of my knowledge there is. There's also what I
17 would consider pseudo-science being done on one side.
18 Q. Okay. Do you present intelligent design and creationism
19 as part of your classes?
20 A. Actually, no. As an eighth grade science teacher,
21 evolution is not taught. However, eighth grade science is
22 Earth science, so we talk about the age of the Earth, we talk
23 about Big Bang theory, some other theories behind the creation
24 of the Earth, and the solar system and the universe as a whole.
25 What happened in the past, what prompted my e-mail or
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1 my posting, was that we weren't supposed to say anything. It
2 was not supposed to be mentioned at all.
3 Q. You're supposed --
4 THE COURT: Evolution was not supposed to --
5 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, nothing, you know. And
6 typically if you say something of the Earth, you know,
7 scientists believe the Earth to be 4.5 billion years old, and I
8 work in a part of the county where there's a lot of kids that
9 come from religious backgrounds and they would say, well,
10 that's not what my parents tell me. And I couldn't address
11 that in class.
12 Now I can at least say this is what scientists think,
13 this is what other people think, and just leave it at that.
14 And I think that's a better way to approach it than to just
15 shut a child off and not let them ask a question at all.
16 Q. (By Mr. Gunn) Okay. And did you ever look at the old
17 policy and regulation on teaching evolution or --
18 A. We were shown it at the beginning of the school year.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And it basically said not to talk about it, particularly
21 with middle school kids, because it's not part of our
22 curriculum. We're just told not to mention it, if a child
23 asked a question about it to do the best we could to steer them
24 away from the question.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. Whereas now we can answer the question and move on.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And every year I've had kids ask.
4 Q. Ask stuff about how this may conflict with their personal
5 beliefs?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you've kind of answered the question or step away and
8 move them on?
9 A. Exactly.
10 MR. GUNN: Okay, thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: That's it?
12 THE COURT: Wait.
13 MR. MANELY: Nothing further.
14 THE COURT: Thank you, you may be excused.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Manely, call your next witness.
17 MS. GARRETT: Your Honor, we call Kathy Chapman.
18 THE COURT: Raise your right hand, please.
19 KATHLEEN CHAPMAN,
20 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
21 follows:
22 THE COURT: Thank you, please be seated.
23 Your witness.
24 DIRECT EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. GARRETT:
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1 Q. Good morning.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Would you please state your name for the record?
4 A. Kathleen Chapman.
5 Q. And are you a plaintiff in --
6 THE COURT: Speak a little louder.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Kathleen Chapman. Yes, I'm
8 a plaintiff.
9 Q. (By Ms. Garrett) Would you tell me what county you live
10 in?
11 A. I live in Cobb County.
12 Q. And how long have you lived in Cobb County?
13 A. For 18 years.
14 Q. And do you pay taxes in Cobb County?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And does some of that money go to the school district?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you have any children at Cobb County schools?
19 A. Yeah. I have a daughter who's a senior at McEachern High
20 School. She -- yes.
21 Q. Do you have any hopes for her after she graduates from
22 high school?
23 A. Yeah. I would love for her to go to college. She's
24 working on that right now. She's applying to several colleges
25 in Georgia. She would ultimately love to go to the University
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1 of Georgia.
2 Q. Has your daughter taken any biological science classes
3 while in high school?
4 A. Yeah. She took the required tenth grade biology and right
5 now -- that was in tenth grade -- and right now as a senior
6 she's taking microbiology, which is an elective science.
7 Q. And was she ever assigned a textbook with a disclaimer in
8 it?
9 A. In both classes, yes. In tenth grade biology she had --
10 actually, she was in honors biology so she had a different
11 textbook than that one but it had the sticker in it. And then
12 the microbiology book also has the sticker in it.
13 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions about your activities
14 in the community, shift a little bit. Are you a member of a
15 church?
16 A. Yes. I'm a member of the Unitarian Universalist
17 Congregation of Marietta.
18 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
19 A. I was just going to say, yeah, I attend every Sunday, I'm
20 very active.
21 Q. And do you hold any leadership roles there?
22 A. I'm the social -- the chair of the social justice
23 committee, which we do all the programs like feeding the poor
24 and those kinds of things.
25 Q. Can you tell me about any activities you've been involved
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1 with that are related to your daughter's schooling or
2 education?
3 A. Well, yeah. I've been in -- very active in the PTA ever
4 since she was in the first grade, probably not so much the last
5 couple of years, but I was chair of the PTA environmental
6 club -- I mean environmental committee, chair of the committee
7 at her school all through elementary school. And then when she
8 was in middle school I was the PTA environmental chair at the
9 council level, which was overseeing 20 schools, and I was also
10 very active in her school in environmental issues and worked
11 with the target science teacher at her middle school in the
12 science club. Even after she got out of the science club,
13 actually, she felt it wasn't cool enough, but I stayed and
14 worked with the teacher on the science club, put in an outdoor
15 classroom behind the school and got all kinds of plaques and
16 stuff. It was very cool. Since then I haven't been that
17 involved because she doesn't want to see me anywhere near her
18 school.
19 Q. Can you tell me how you learned about the school board's
20 decision to place the disclaimers in the textbooks?
21 A. Yeah. When I first heard about it it was several months
22 after it happened because I read about it in the newspaper,
23 actually, I read about the lawsuit, which made me very mad that
24 it had happened several months before and I didn't know about
25 it, being as I live over there. And I felt that they kind of
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1 went around my back by sticking it in the book directly to my
2 daughter without having talked to me about it, you know,
3 especially since I reviewed textbooks and there was nothing in
4 the textbooks about that.
5 I mean, there was no sticker in the textbooks at the
6 time they asked us to come review them. So I felt kind of
7 betrayed about it.
8 And I was very alarmed that -- I mean when I read the
9 text of the sticker it basically told me -- I mean I
10 immediately -- my alarm bells went off and said this came from
11 a religious source, because those are the only people that ever
12 challenge evolution. And I was very surprised to see that,
13 too, because I always thought -- I mean, I have always been
14 very impressed with Cobb County schools, you know, just the
15 education standards in general, and I was surprised that they
16 were going that route.
17 Q. And as a Unitarian Universalist, did you feel differently
18 about the disclaimer because of that?
19 A. Well, I don't know if you know, but Unitarian
20 Universalists, one of their basic tenets is religious
21 tolerance, tolerance of all religious views, or no religious
22 views.
23 I mean, we actually have members of our congregation
24 who are very active who are, you know, humanists or atheists.
25 We have Christians, Buddhists, Jews. That's one of the tenets
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1 of our religions.
2 So I was kind of offended that it basically told my
3 daughter that, you know -- I was offended for that -- by that
4 sticker for lots of reasons, but among them that it was
5 promoting the religious view as opposed to the scientific view.
6 MS. GARRETT: Thank you.
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. CALLAWAY:
9 Q. Good morning, Ms. Chapman.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. I just have a few questions for you. Were you at any of
12 the board meetings when this --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- issue was --
15 A. Yeah. The minute it all came to my attention I came and
16 spoke, I think in the August meeting and was also there in
17 September.
18 Q. So you did actually speak?
19 A. Yes, I did, I got up and spoke.
20 Q. Was there a diversity of opinion about --
21 A. There was --
22 Q. -- the textbook?
23 A. -- some very strong opinions on two sides. There was the
24 religious side and there was the science side, basically, very
25 strong opinions.
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1 Q. Have you ever been to the school board on any other --
2 A. Oh, several times, yes.
3 Q. How, specifically, did you become a plaintiff in this
4 case?
5 A. How specifically?
6 Q. Uh-huh. You came later after the suit had already been
7 filed?
8 A. Yeah. Well, you know, I was aware of the lawsuit and
9 actually, because I spoke at the school board meeting, there
10 was some parents that were trying to get everyone together who
11 was on our side. Since it appeared that the other side was
12 more organized than we were, we were trying to get ourselves
13 together to try to oppose it in a more unified way. And so a
14 fellow parent was calling all the people that spoke in
15 opposition to the sticker. And that's how I, you know, met a
16 lot of the people. That's how I met Jeffrey. And when they
17 decided to try to see if we could add more plaintiffs, then I
18 said, absolutely, count me in.
19 Q. You say you were -- were you the president of the PTA
20 or --
21 A. I was never the president. I was the environmental chair
22 forever.
23 Q. Chair of a committee?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In that position was there ever any diversity of opinion?
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1 A. In my -- oh, no. Everybody who got involved in the
2 environmental committee was very unified for the environment.
3 Q. So you never dealt with any controversy?
4 A. In that capacity?
5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 A. No. I mean, environment is always on everybody's back
7 burner and so we were always trying to get ourselves to the
8 forefront.
9 Actually, there is a lot of controversy about the
10 environment. A lot of people think that it's not a valid
11 concern and that, you know, the Earth belongs to us and we can
12 do whatever we want to it. And there actually is a religious
13 view that the Earth belongs to us and God gave everything to us
14 and we can trash it if we want to, and I've been fighting that
15 for a long time, too.
16 Q. Fighting what?
17 A. Fighting that view and, you know, to try to explain that
18 it doesn't belong to us, we're just part of it and so we should
19 respect it.
20 Q. So you understand that there are all kinds of views
21 that --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- have to be taken into account?
24 A. Yes, I do. In fact, I can sympathize with the school
25 district's efforts to try to respect all views. I've been very
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1 involved in the school. I mean, I've substitute taught classes
2 and I've been -- I can sympathize with them.
3 I think there are better ways they could have
4 accommodated this. I mean, they could have sent letters to the
5 parents. They send home a huge package the beginning of every
6 school year that's got so much stuff to go through, they could
7 have sent a letter saying we have textbooks and if you have
8 concerns you can call us or talk to the teacher. There are any
9 number of ways they could have done this to respect the views
10 of the community without going directly to the students and
11 questioning the content of the textbook, which is what they
12 did.
13 Q. So it's not that you don't understand they were trying to
14 be tolerant and respect other views, you understand that?
15 A. I think there are ways they could have been tolerant
16 without having questioned the science in the books.
17 Q. So you would just prefer another way to accommodate
18 tolerance?
19 A. I would have preferred if they had accommodated it rather
20 than promoted religion in order to accommodate it.
21 Q. But you believe in a tolerant, respectful view?
22 A. Absolutely I believe in tolerance, yes.
23 MS. CALLAWAY: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: Anything else from this witness?
25 MS. GARRETT: No, Your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2 Call your next witness.
3 MR. MANELY: Your Honor, probably as a procedural
4 matter, Your Honor has made a ruling on the testimony to be
5 offered by doctors Ronald Matson, Benjamin Freed, Sarah Pallas
6 and Eugenie Scott. We would like to respectfully revisit that
7 issue and request that we can call them in this trial.
8 THE COURT: No.
9 MR. MANELY: Okay. Anticipating that, in the form of
10 an offer of proof what we would like to do is tender during the
11 trial here the same affidavits that they had provided to this
12 Court during our response to the motion for summary judgment.
13 THE COURT: No problem with that.
14 MR. MANELY: Okay. And so the record is clear, we
15 are offering Dr. Ronald Matson's affidavit as Exhibit 77,
16 Pallas as Exhibit -- I missed somebody, Dr. Freed is Exhibit
17 78, Dr. Pallas is Exhibit 79 and Dr. Scott is Exhibit 80.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 MR. MANELY: May we have just a moment?
20 THE COURT: Sure, go ahead.
21 (Pause.)
22 MR. MANELY: With that, Your Honor, the plaintiff
23 rests.
24 THE COURT: Thank you, let the record so reflect.
25 Mr. Gunn?
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1 MR. MANELY: Your Honor, might we have 15 minutes?
2 THE COURT: Let me find out what Mr. Gunn -- approach
3 the bench, both of you.
4 (Proceedings at bench.)
5 THE COURT: You want time to think about what you
6 want to do, just take a recess now? I try to recess at 11:00.
7 I usually try to do that but if you need to think about what
8 you want to do.
9 MR. MANELY: You've got two witnesses, right?
10 MR. GUNN: I think right now I'm going to do one,
11 just one.
12 THE COURT: Is he or she here?
13 MR. GUNN: Yes, he is.
14 THE COURT: Let's go ahead.
15 MR. MANELY: You're talking about George?
16 MR. GUNN: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Thank you.
18 (Proceedings in open court.)
19 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that the plaintiff
20 has rested.
21 Do the defendants intend to call any witnesses?
22 MR. GUNN: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: If so, call your first witness.
24 MR. GUNN: Defense calls George Stickel.
25 THE COURT: Okay, thank you.
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1 Please step up, face me, and raise your right hand.
2 GEORGE STICKEL,
3 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5 THE COURT: Thank you, please be seated.
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. GUNN:
8 Q. Dr. Stickel?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. You've been here a few days, I appreciate your patience.
11 Could you tell the Court your position with Cobb County
12 schools?
13 A. I am the high school science supervisor for Cobb County
14 schools. That means I work with the teachers on curriculum and
15 instruction.
16 Q. Okay. Tell the Court what that means when you work with
17 them on curriculum instruction. What kind of things do you do?
18 A. In the last year one of the things that I've done is work
19 very hard to make sure that we have a strong, viable curriculum
20 at the state level that our teachers can feel comfortable with
21 teaching that reflects quality science. And I will also work
22 with developing workshops, activities, share resources with
23 them that will improve their science teaching.
24 Q. When did you take your current position with Cobb schools?
25 A. It was the end of July in 2002, in the middle of the
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1 discussion.
2 Q. What position did you hold before that time?
3 A. I was a teacher at Harrison High School. I taught
4 physics. That year I think I taught physics all day long.
5 I've taught chemistry, Earth science and astronomy, as well, at
6 Harrison.
7 Q. How long did you teach at Harrison?
8 A. Eight years.
9 Q. And those subjects are the ones that you taught throughout
10 the eight years or did you teach others as well?
11 A. Those were typically the -- most of the courses were
12 chemistry, physics and astronomy. I had some Earth science in
13 there. And, I don't remember, there may be another class or
14 two but that was for the most part what I taught.
15 Q. Did you have any extracurricular duties at Harrison?
16 A. I was the sponsor of the Science Club, the Science
17 Olympiad, the Science Bowl teams, as well as the Philosophy
18 Club.
19 Q. What prior positions have you held in the educational
20 field?
21 A. I was associate professor of education at Kennesaw State
22 and was assistant and became associate professor at
23 Northwestern College in Iowa, a small liberal arts Christian
24 institution. I was -- I worked as director of the contract
25 programs at Southern Illinois University at Carbondale, which
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1 was international programs and prism programs were offered,
2 college, university work for professionals.
3 Q. How many years did your college experience span in
4 teaching?
5 A. In teaching full time I was ten years.
6 Q. And, real quickly, just tell the Court your degrees and
7 the institutions that conferred them.
8 A. My undergraduate degree is in chemistry from Sterling
9 College, Sterling, Kansas. Masters of Education -- Masters of
10 Science in education from Southern Illinois University at
11 Carbondale, and a Doctorate in philosophy of education from
12 Southern Illinois University at Carbondale.
13 Q. Thank you. Are you a member of any professional groups?
14 A. I am currently a member of National Science Teachers
15 Association, the Society for the Advancement of American
16 Philosophy, the Charles Sander Peirce Society. And I've let
17 lapse my American Chemical Society and American Philosophical
18 Association memberships just because of cost.
19 Q. Do you have any children?
20 A. Three daughters, all graduates of Cobb County schools.
21 Q. Have any of your children attended classes which involved
22 a curriculum which had the sticker in it?
23 A. Yes. Our youngest daughter went to Kennesaw Mountain and
24 she was young enough, she graduated last May, that she had
25 several classes with textbooks with stickers in them.
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1 Q. You taught at Harrison before, before --
2 A. Right.
3 Q. -- we had any discussion about a sticker or the 2001
4 textbook adoption or any of this happened?
5 A. I was involved in the textbook adoption but the sticker
6 came in in May, I think it was the discussion was in May and
7 that was about the time I was making application.
8 Q. Okay. And, again, your experience at Harrison, did the
9 astronomy or physics curriculum include any instruction that
10 relates to evolution or that type of evolutionary theory in a
11 broad sense?
12 A. In the broadest sense there were, certainly in astronomy
13 we dealt with the Big Bang and the age of the Earth and that
14 was just touched upon in physics because of the significance.
15 And relativity was another similar question that came up in
16 physics that was oftentimes interfaced with religious
17 questions.
18 Q. Okay. So at times religious questions came into the
19 discussion at Harrison before the sticker was an issue?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. Tell me, tell the Court how would that happen and
22 how would you handle it?
23 A. Sometimes I would anticipate and approach it head-on.
24 Like I always had one day where we discussed relativity and I
25 would begin the presentation by saying that you need to know
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1 that relativity probably affects philosophical and social ideas
2 more than any other theory and you need to understand what
3 physicists say about relativity and what the research has done
4 on relativity, even though there's people that still have
5 questions.
6 Q. Okay. And would students ever raise issues at any point
7 in that discussion or others and how would -- how did you
8 handle that?
9 A. I love questions and I would encourage the students to ask
10 questions. And when we talked about issues like relativity or
11 the age of the Earth and so on, there were constant questions
12 that would come up.
13 If they dealt with a purely religious perspective or
14 philosophical perspective, I would -- the rules were that
15 students were able to say anything they want to say in class
16 but they had to be respectful of one another and we had to
17 stick to the curriculum.
18 So I would say, if they were off the topic, that we
19 needed to come back to the curriculum, and I might say
20 something like this is an excellent question, this was
21 something that, if you want to discuss more, philosophy club
22 meets on Tuesday after school and that's where we discuss these
23 issues, this is what you need to know science is all about and
24 this is what religion or philosophy is about, and there is an
25 interface there and there are fields of study on both sides
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1 called cosmology, for example, but you need to understand what
2 the essence of science is all about and what we can talk about
3 in the science classroom.
4 Q. You heard Mr. Selman's testimony that science and religion
5 should be kept totally separate. Can you -- have you been able
6 to --
7 MR. MANELY: Objection, Your Honor,
8 mischaracterization of Mr. Selman's testimony, he said in the
9 science class.
10 Q. (By Mr. Gunn) In the science class have you found it
11 feasible to keep science and religion completely separate?
12 A. A teacher is always dealing with a real live person, a
13 whole student that brings everything from political to
14 religious to philosophical presuppositions to the classroom.
15 And the science teacher's job, I believe, is always to bring
16 the student back to the science side. They need to
17 understand -- I studied a lot of epistemology and I think they
18 need to understand what the aspect of knowing in science is all
19 about and how that may or may not compare to religion and
20 philosophy and where the lines are so that we can clearly say
21 these are science discussions, these are not science
22 discussions, these are good discussions but we need to make
23 sure that we're back in the realm of science and what science
24 is all about, or come to philosophy club.
25 Q. Have you ever experienced a time when you were aware that
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1 evolution instruction or other instruction you were offering in
2 science may have directly conflicted with the students'
3 religious beliefs?
4 A. Yes, fairly often, both in higher education and in public
5 schools. In those cases, on a good day when I was the best
6 teacher I could be, I was always sensitive to their concerns
7 and would respond to them that what they needed to do was talk
8 to their pastor, their rabbi, their parents, if they had
9 questions that dealt with the religious side, those were
10 clearly outside of the science classroom side, and that the
11 important thing was to ask questions. And also to be cautious
12 when you ask questions because sometimes some questions
13 politically can move you to the edge of your community and so
14 you want to be sensitive to the people you're asking the
15 questions of so that you can enjoy the experience. And then on
16 a bad day I may look surprised and go from there with the same
17 sort of argument.
18 Q. Okay. Are you aware whether other teachers at Harrison
19 had these same kinds of issues come up about the intersection
20 of science and religion?
21 A. Particularly as you get deeper into science, like the high
22 school level, students are well aware of what's out in society
23 and the questions come up all the time. They want to talk
24 before or after class, they want to talk in class about a
25 variety of issues. And, yes, there are -- the issues come up
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1 more often than probably we feel comfortable with.
2 Q. Okay, so it's not unique to your classroom?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did these kinds of things come up in your college teaching
5 experience?
6 A. They did. I was teaching in a small Christian college for
7 eight years, I taught at Kennesaw State, a public institution,
8 for a couple of years, and I did some part-time teaching at
9 Southern Illinois University at Carbondale, which was part
10 time, and the questions do come up as we think about what we
11 are as real live people in a universe.
12 Q. What is critical thinking?
13 A. There's a lot more work done on critical thinking these
14 days than there was 30, 40 years ago. The expectation of
15 critical thinking is, from the leaders in the field, that
16 there's a series of standards, that there's an ability to ask
17 questions and couch those questions in ways that can move you
18 through whatever material you're looking at, political,
19 scientific, whatever.
20 And then there's a series of standards that are
21 applied from whatever field you're talking about, whether it's
22 theology or science, biology or genetics or analytic chemistry,
23 that you need to compare the standards with whatever the topic
24 is that you're dealing with.
25 And as novices, students get into this, they begin to
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1 learn that there are what these standards mean and it's a
2 process that they can get involved in to more fully understand
3 the depth of the science or the theology or philosophy or
4 whatever it is that we're wanting to talk about.
5 Q. You've heard the argument the last few days that
6 evolutionary theory ought to be treated like other theories.
7 As far as critical thinking goes, is evolutionary theory
8 different than other scientific theories or is it the same?
9 A. In the broadest sense of the term, the concept of theory
10 is applied to quantum mechanics, relativity, gravity, genetics,
11 whatever, in the same way.
12 The substance of the disciplines are, I think, vastly
13 different, in part because evolution, Darwinian evolution first
14 came to be in 1859. It's a fairly simplistic approach to
15 science. It is comprehensible at the high school level.
16 You get into something like quantum mechanics, and
17 I'd be glad to put some equations on the board, but when I
18 teach Sunday school and I put an equation on the board they
19 shut down right away, and those are adults.
20 When you deal with relativity you're dealing with an
21 algebraic expression that includes a square root and an
22 exponential and kids get turned off right away.
23 So to begin to talk about the depth of relativity or
24 quantum mechanics or their combination in terms of
25 gravitational theory is much more difficult to comprehend for
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1 the students. So the issues at hand are less tangible for the
2 students.
3 So the students can hear the things about evolution
4 early on, that the concept of evolution said that there were
5 some species that were no longer and they were only in the
6 fossil record. And the church in the early 1800s believed very
7 strongly that all species that were created were still alive.
8 And so that became the first stumbling block. So it's those
9 simple observations that have moved through in the -- in what
10 progressive way as we've understood evolution in the 20th and
11 21st century.
12 So I think evolution is something they can grab ahold
13 of easily and they can realize what some of the issues are,
14 where relativity is beyond them and quantum mechanics is
15 further beyond them.
16 Q. Well, I guess what I was trying to get at is is
17 evolutionary theory different than other scientific theories in
18 terms of the amount of potential relationship between that
19 teaching and religion?
20 A. In the mainstream culture, yes. Occasionally you run into
21 somebody that will argue against relativity from religious
22 perspectives but the mathematics is fairly convoluted and
23 opaque.
24 Q. Do those kinds of issues about religion that you talked
25 about when you're discussing evolution, does that come up with
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1 just students that have a very strong religious faith?
2 A. No. Because the --
3 MR. MANELY: Objection, Your Honor. That assumes
4 he's able to determine the motivation behind the students'
5 questions.
6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, the objection is what?
7 MR. MANELY: That assumes that he's able to determine
8 the motivation behind the students' questions.
9 MR. GUNN: I guess I'm asking --
10 THE COURT: Can you rephrase your question?
11 MR. GUNN: Sure.
12 Q. (By Mr. Gunn) Is it your sense in discussing those kinds
13 of questions with students that the questions that come up
14 about the relationship between science and religion, are those
15 all coming from a person that's very motivated by religion from
16 the discussion, or does it seem like that comes up with
17 different kinds of students?
18 MR. MANELY: Same objection, Your Honor. He's unable
19 to determine the student's motivation.
20 THE COURT: I'm going to let him answer the question.
21 Go ahead.
22 THE WITNESS: All right. Indeed, part of the problem
23 being a teacher is trying to determine what the students'
24 motivations are. I may not always know. But I have a full
25 range, I worked very hard to get to know my students, and on
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1 the first day of class they may say to me, point-blank, I'm a
2 Christian, I'm a Jew, a whatever, to define who they were as
3 people.
4 Oftentimes there were questions that were very
5 specific because their pastor may have said something the day
6 before, parents had talked about it at dinnertime. Sometimes
7 it was just out of pure curiosity. It may be a student that
8 wants -- that thinks very deeply about religion from an
9 academic perspective as opposed to a personal faith and so they
10 were interested in the dynamics that way. And then sometimes
11 it was a student that was just interested in the science, a
12 geeky sort of student.
13 Q. (By Mr. Gunn) Do you consider yourself a -- do you
14 believe in a creator?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Does your understanding of evolution conflict with your
17 faith?
18 A. No, it does not. There are times where there are
19 questions that are raised, and I've encouraged questions with
20 my family and with my students, when I taught at a Christian
21 college and the secular world.
22 Q. At what point did you get involved in the textbook
23 adoption process that we're here about?
24 A. Oh, maybe ten minutes after -- well, the textbook
25 adoption, I was on the committee the year before.
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1 Q. Okay, in 2001, is that correct?
2 A. Yes, right.
3 Q. Did you participate in any of the process of actually
4 selecting the texts that were going to be recommended?
5 A. Yes, I did. And I don't think any of the texts that I
6 specifically looked at on my subcommittee have a sticker in
7 them, but yes.
8 Q. Okay. Can you tell a little bit about how does that
9 process work?
10 A. The concern always in science, and probably health, are
11 the most sensitive areas where we realize that there are social
12 concerns.
13 The person that had my position before came into the
14 room and said we need to make sure that whatever we present to
15 the students and to the parents and eventually the board is a
16 solid understanding of the field that we're dealing with, so,
17 in our case, good quality science, and that we document full
18 well the way we evaluate our textbooks.
19 So that in the committee process there was a form
20 that we completed, we talked about the form and made sure that
21 we wanted to evaluate the books in that manner. Specifically
22 questions would come up about technology and the importance of
23 technology as we evaluate the book.
24 And then we would go into the subcommittee group to
25 look at, in my case, the physics text and we would look at a
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1 physics text for AP physics, honors physics, regular physics.
2 And then because that had a smaller number of books, we dealt
3 with, I think astronomy, meteorology, and some other areas as
4 well.
5 Q. And the public had an opportunity to review the books
6 after they were selected?
7 A. As I understood it there was about a two-week window when
8 they were available. And I know with the language arts books
9 recently, they kept those on -- they were available if anybody
10 wanted to come in for a fairly lengthy period of time.
11 Q. Now you currently are in charge of how this tenth grade
12 biology book curriculum is taught, right?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. In the course of your duties have you had an opportunity
15 to review the Defendants' Exhibit 4, the biology book?
16 A. I have more time on biology, probably, than some of the
17 other areas just because of the questions that have come up in
18 2002, as well as recently.
19 Q. Have you reviewed other biology books that would be
20 appropriate for this same grade level that could have been
21 selected?
22 A. Yes. And I even went back and looked at my tenth grade
23 biology book that I had when I was in high school just to do a
24 comparative.
25 Q. How do you think this one compares as far as the treatment
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1 of evolution with other books that are available in the
2 marketplace?
3 A. I genuinely feel this is one of the best books on the
4 market. There are a phenomenal number of good books available
5 but I have been very impressed with Ken Miller when I've met
6 him and I've known Joe Levine for a couple of years now and
7 we've discussed a lot of these issues and have been very
8 impressed with their knowledge and the way they present the
9 materials.
10 Q. Does this book, as far as you know, ever express the idea
11 that, as far as evolution, there's a potential conflict there
12 between science and religion and kind of address that broad
13 issue?
14 A. The textbook itself, I think, does an excellent job of
15 staying focused on what the essence of science and evolution is
16 all about.
17 Last night I did discover a website that Joe and Ken
18 have that reflects some questions that have come up about their
19 book and they deal with the science of that. So they very
20 consistently move to bring the student or the reader always
21 back to what the essence of the quality science is.
22 Q. Okay. But as far as that issue, it's more focused on the
23 science and doesn't really address that issue; is that what
24 you're saying?
25 A. Right. The textbook itself is very consistently a science
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1 perspective.
2 Q. Are some of the other alternatives, do they ever address
3 that issue?
4 A. Every now and then there's a one-liner put in the book,
5 something about there are social questions or religious
6 questions or other cosmologies that would apply to the way a
7 person views the world around them. But it's usually a one- or
8 two-liner, it's very short.
9 THE COURT: We are going to take a 15-minute recess.
10 Thank you.
11 (Recess.)
12 THE COURT: Thank you, please be seated. Go ahead.
13 Q. (By Mr. Gunn) Dr. Stickel, I'm showing you what's been
14 marked Defendants' Exhibit 4 and ask you to turn to the
15 sticker --
16 A. All right.
17 Q. -- just to refresh your recollection. Is there anything,
18 in your view, inaccurate about that sticker?
19 A. From a science perspective, no, not at all.
20 Q. As a teacher, is there any etiological value in the
21 sticker?
22 A. It can entice students to be curious about what's the
23 concern with evolution. Most students aren't reading things
24 unless you tell them to turn to page such-and-such. So some
25 will see it, some will hear more about it in the newspapers
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1 than they will actual notice in the classroom, I think.
2 Q. You testified that your daughter took a class using a
3 textbook that had a sticker in it.
4 A. Yes. I think she's taken at least three.
5 Q. Do you know whether that sticker had any impact on her
6 study of the science of evolution?
7 A. I know that the sticker and the discussion in the county
8 and nationally sparked an interest, so she wanted to do an
9 independent study on evolution.
10 Q. What kind of study?
11 A. She wanted to look at, after talking with her teacher,
12 decided to look at mitochondrial DNA and how the
13 differentiation in DNA that comes out of that part of the cell,
14 to see how it compared to reinforce the idea of evolution as
15 a --
16 Q. What's a theory?
17 A. A theory in science is something revered. It is an
18 explanation that is held to -- it does two things, it has to do
19 two things. One is it has to explain all of the information we
20 currently know about the field, whatever the field is; and,
21 second, it has to allow itself to be used to predict where
22 future research would be done. And then if that future
23 research reinforces the theory, it continues on; if it doesn't,
24 then a new theory is born.
25 Q. What would be a short definition of the term "theory"?
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1 A. Short definition would be an explanation that looks at all
2 the facts, observations, experimentation, all the data, and is
3 able to make sense of it.
4 Q. Is a theory entirely factual in nature?
5 A. No. There's some things that facts would be -- I can
6 observe fossils, I can observe the sun coming up every morning.
7 I have a theory that the Earth will continue to go around the
8 sun and the sun will -- and the Earth will revolve on the axis
9 and the sun will appear to come up every morning but I'll know
10 tomorrow morning.
11 Q. So how does a hypothesis become a theory?
12 A. Hypotheses is usually a preliminary answer to a specific
13 question of some phenomena. The hypothesis to be a theory has
14 to be very comprehensive and systematic in its approach to the
15 discipline itself.
16 Q. And once an idea like evolution becomes a theory, does it
17 remain static at that point?
18 A. No. There is always -- there are always people that are
19 asking questions about it, there is always new curiosities.
20 There is always -- Robert Bakker, for example, decided to look
21 at how dinosaurs, instead of them being cold-blooded, lethargic
22 beings that had to live in the swamp to carry their weight, he
23 decided to look at them as warm-blooded animals and what would
24 that do to our understanding of dinosaurs. And that became a
25 more current theory in the last 40 years that defined our
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1 understanding of dinosaur behavior, for example.
2 Q. So would a scientist accept the proposition that once an
3 idea becomes a theory that then you don't ever question that
4 theory?
5 A. No. Even relativity, 1905 was when Einstein published the
6 paper and quantum mechanics another 10, 20 years later. The
7 expectation is that there may well be something else that comes
8 along but as we get in those areas of physics, the data that we
9 have in any field is so comprehensive that the theory has to
10 address all of those bits of data.
11 Q. Has our understanding of evolutionary theory changed over
12 time?
13 A. Yes, certainly. The most dramatic would probably be
14 Lamarckian theory of evolution that was believed for a while
15 and then Darwin came along and then people would promote one
16 aspect or another of Darwinian thought. When it began to --
17 when we began to understand cell theory and genetics, a whole
18 series of questions came up about do they fit into our
19 understanding of Darwinian theory, and the theory begins to
20 take on a different light. It becomes much broader, there are
21 those areas where scientists will guess at an area and they may
22 or may not be proven wrong, and so the theory tends to expand
23 or contract relative to the issues that, and the lab
24 experiences, that are developed to test a theory.
25 Q. Are there, in the broadest sense, are there any scientists
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1 who dispute the theory of evolution?
2 A. In the broadest sense of the theory, I'm not familiar with
3 any scientist that would say evolution using natural selection
4 is wrong.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. There may be some aspects that scientists would debate
7 that get quoted and misquoted that look at particular aspects
8 of the theory. But I think as far as natural selection goes,
9 there is no doubt in the real scientific community.
10 Q. How about particular parts of evolutionary theory, do any
11 scientists question those?
12 A. Yes. For example, and one I found out from a Sunday
13 school book that we use, they quoted David Raup from Chicago
14 Field Museum, who is the curator of geology, and they quoted
15 Ilya Prigogine, who is a Nobel laureate in physical chemistry
16 with chaos theory. And I had met Prigogine and so I was
17 familiar with his books, I think I've read every book that he's
18 written and the way the quotes were made I was suspect of the
19 quotes.
20 And so I got a copy of the field guide and I pulled
21 Prigogine's book off the shelf and, indeed, the quotes were
22 accurate. They were misrepresented, though, because what they
23 were dealing with was aspects of how natural selection is
24 played out in a population and a concept of statistical
25 mechanics as we come to understand what the population is all
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1 about.
2 And so they were not discounting evolution, although
3 the quotes that were used and tend to get quoted in Philip
4 Johnson's books and others, those quotes on the surface appear
5 like they are discounting evolution but they are only looking
6 at fine-tuning the process of natural selection, for example.
7 Q. Is there any current research or dispute on the
8 relationship between the theory of thermodynamics and
9 evolutionary theory?
10 A. I read somewhere recently Stuart Kaufman's response, and
11 it was brought up about his concept of chaos and implications
12 to biological systems.
13 And the person that I heard responding, I can't even
14 remember where it was, it was sometime in the last two weeks,
15 and the person responded by saying that that typically is a
16 computer-generated model. And I was amazed that they didn't
17 look at Prigogine's work, who works with chemical systems, to
18 address some of the same concepts. And I think the -- I think
19 there's -- I can't name a person that's dealing with it in a
20 biological sense in a purely chaos, but Prigogine's work with
21 Isabel Stengers quotes a lot of population studies, biological
22 studies that show that there can be a different order created
23 when a system is moved far from equilibrium, is his term. It's
24 perturbed, becomes a different system then.
25 Q. Have you read anything recently about the, they call it
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1 the miniature people, that the New York Times --
2 A. Yes. I've heard it more on radio than I've had a chance
3 to read about it.
4 Q. Is that a recent scientific discovery?
5 A. I think maybe in the last weekend or the tail end of last
6 week. It was very, very recent.
7 Q. Does that recent discovery change anything about our
8 understanding of human evolution?
9 A. Each science discovery is a new datum that has to be
10 plugged in to the theory, whatever the theory is, in this case
11 evolution. And so I think there was a line in the New York
12 Times or somewhere that said that it will force us to rethink
13 our concepts of evolution.
14 Specifically they were looking at a concept of brain size
15 and animal mass and that they needed to rethink the importance
16 of brain size and the importance of the brain or the size of
17 the brain in terms of the animal's functioning.
18 This is not a totally unique situation because
19 Neanderthals, or Neandertals, have a bigger brain than the Homo
20 sapien's brain. And I was reading this morning before I came
21 to the court Allman's book on the evolving brain talks about
22 the differences in brain size and animal mass. And I probably
23 would get too complex -- I get excited about this stuff.
24 Q. I was asking really just if you -- that's a current area
25 that's being looked into that's --
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1 A. Very definitely, right. And it won't discount evolution
2 but it will add a few more pages to the volumes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Sorry, I get excited.
5 Q. I'm going to show you what has been marked Defendants'
6 Exhibit 5. Can you identify that?
7 A. That is their policy that was voted in on the 26th of
8 September 2002 that replaced the older policy.
9 Q. Are you familiar with the older policy?
10 A. I was. Being a physical science person, I tended to
11 ignore it more because it didn't apply as much, but I --
12 Q. Okay. Did it conflict with what you actually did?
13 A. Probably did in terms of, you know, of allowing students
14 to speak.
15 Q. Okay. Which policy do you think is preferable as a
16 teacher and a scientist?
17 A. Well, I've certainly studied enough educational law to
18 know that the former one was unconstitutional.
19 Q. Not as a lawyer; as a teacher and scientist, which one do
20 you like?
21 A. Oh, definitely this new one because it deals with the
22 essence of science.
23 Q. The policy says in part that: "The subject remains an
24 area of intense interest, research and discussion among
25 scholars." Is that an accurate statement?
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1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Can you identify Defendants' Exhibit 6?
3 A. Yes, sir. That's the regulation that followed the policy
4 that fleshed out how the policy was to be implemented in the
5 classroom.
6 Q. And you're familiar with the previous regulation, right?
7 A. No, I'm probably not as --
8 Q. All right. Do you remember --
9 A. I think it was, I think Ms. Chapman made, or Ms. Quenan
10 made a comment that -- yes, okay, it is familiar.
11 Q. Okay. Again, do you think the -- which one do you prefer
12 as a teacher?
13 A. Oh, absolutely the new one, and not just because I wrote
14 most of it, but because I believe it deals with moving our
15 students towards an understanding of quality science.
16 Q. Okay. Tell the Court how that was -- the process for
17 drafting that regulation.
18 A. When regulations need to be drafted they'll go to the
19 curricular area and ask for somebody to respond to a regulation
20 that makes sense for the teachers, and in this case I believe
21 you called me and asked about getting a committee together.
22 And we got a committee of middle, elementary, and high school
23 teachers to --
24 Q. Who selected the members of the committee?
25 A. Wendy Delano and I did.
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1 Q. And I interrupted you. Who was on the committee?
2 A. There were three levels. We had a teacher from each of
3 the grade level -- each of the broad, elementary, middle, and
4 high school levels.
5 Q. Science teachers?
6 A. Science teachers in each case. In the elementary case it
7 was a person that was very much interested in science and
8 pushed the science concepts.
9 Q. Okay. And you said you feel like you drafted most of it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So I take it you agree with its content?
12 A. Yes. Sometimes I get a little pushy and I wanted to make
13 sure that, because we had a full range of responses to the
14 board discussion, and I wanted to make sure that there was no
15 doubt in anybody's mind that Cobb County was going to present a
16 quality science education program where the students walked
17 away with a clear understanding, and we're not embarrassed that
18 they didn't know something in science that was important.
19 Q. Was that your main goal?
20 A. Right. And the second goal was to protect the teachers.
21 I made some comments that I would prefer not having teachers
22 have to be in the courtroom, they need to be in the classroom,
23 and most of them feel much more comfortable in the classroom.
24 Q. Is there any part of the regulation you feel accomplishes
25 that particular goal?
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1 A. I think that the regulation as a whole, but I think
2 there's a line in here that I think reinforces the essence of
3 the science, the second paragraph, in the middle of the
4 paragraph: "It is recognized that the scientific instruction
5 may create conflicts or questions for some students with
6 regards to belief systems. Discussions should be moderated to
7 promote a sense of scientific inquiry and understanding
8 scientific methods and distinguish between the scientific and
9 the philosophical."
10 And then I think the third one is very important in the
11 classroom, that we understand that we're there to guide
12 students and not coerce them, not roll our eyes at their
13 beliefs, in a sense, and allow them to believe as they believe.
14 Q. In the process of going from the previous policy and
15 regulation through this curriculum adoption and the adoption of
16 the new policy and regulation, do you think the curriculum
17 changes made by the board hurt or enhanced evolution
18 instruction?
19 A. Not the curriculum changes, but the policy changes they
20 made and the acceptance of regulation indeed solidified our
21 hand as science educators to teach a quality science education.
22 Q. After the board approved the policy and the regulation,
23 what steps have you taken to implement the changes to how we
24 teach evolution?
25 A. It's always an issue because teachers know what's going on
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1 in the world around them and they want to be cautious and they
2 don't want to be sued and they don't want to have to make
3 parent phone calls. So the concern was how do we get them to
4 understand what the expectations are.
5 The day after, I think it was, if memory serves me
6 correctly, the day after the board policy was established I
7 sent an e-mail to the teachers defining what that meant that
8 fall for them, because I knew the regulation was going to take
9 time, and so I have attempted through e-mails to clarify to
10 them their understanding, that they're to teach evolution, not
11 to teach a faith-based approach.
12 We've also, that fall in October, if I remember
13 right, I wanted the teachers to be open to discuss concepts of
14 theory and so on, and so I had an option evening event where we
15 had a couple of speakers come in to talk about theories, one in
16 quantum mechanics and one in evolution, and their implications.
17 And then the next day -- and the person that dealt with
18 evolution was Joe Levine --
19 Q. One of the authors --
20 A. One of the authors of the textbook. And he was able to
21 present his faith and his expectations for science and how he
22 integrated the two.
23 Q. Why did he bring his faith into it?
24 A. Because I told him these were the issues that came about.
25 And Joe was also editor of the PBS series on evolution and he
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1 understood the questions that were created. And one of the
2 last series -- and he knew what teachers' concerns were.
3 And one of the last episodes of that series was a
4 student from Wheaton College and they interviewed parents to
5 talk about what does it mean as a Christian, as a fundamental
6 Christian, how do I resolve these issues and these questions in
7 the classroom.
8 And then Joe was available the next day to talk about
9 the implementation of his book, it was a brand new book in the
10 county that year. And then we've had a number of other
11 workshops since.
12 And I also, and I don't think I told you this
13 previously, but I led some workshops for teachers that next day
14 on specifically how they teach it.
15 Q. Okay. And you heard the testimony of one of the middle
16 school teachers that came in earlier. Is that in line with
17 what you expect or --
18 A. It is. I was very impressed. I think, you know, the
19 questions are there, kids are curious about their universe.
20 And she was able to respond and move them back, it sounded
21 like, to the curriculum, because that's, by law, what we have
22 to teach, is the state curriculum.
23 Q. The workshop that Dr. Levine participated in, I mean, how
24 did that -- what was that about? How did that address the
25 issue?
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1 A. He was certainly available all day long to deal with the
2 issues and he mentioned evolution. I can't remember if he had
3 a few moments that first morning of the in-service or not, but
4 he was there to talk very specifically about evolution, as well
5 as his textbook and the teaching of it.
6 Q. Who attended that workshop?
7 A. Typically life science teachers, mostly high school
8 biology teachers that taught honors and regular biology.
9 Q. The ones that would be teaching this book?
10 A. Right, this book.
11 Q. Did teachers express any concerns in those workshops about
12 how to do this?
13 A. Yes, indeed. And some were a hundred percent behind where
14 Joe was and some said I still have problems and I don't -- I
15 know what I'm supposed to teach, I'll teach what I'm supposed
16 to teach but I have a personal faith that's separate from that,
17 which is fine.
18 Q. Since that time you brought up issues about the changes in
19 the state curriculum. The state curriculum has been changed as
20 far as the mandated evolution curriculum in Georgia since this
21 all happened, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you participate in that process?
24 A. I did, and I was there the evening that we made the
25 changes to incorporate the evolution back in the document
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1 itself. But it was -- and I hope I served as a bridge to make
2 sure that higher education, the researchers that know biology
3 evolutionary theory were actively engaged in the process and it
4 was being heard by the state.
5 Q. So you actually participated in that process? Did that
6 strengthen evolution instruction in the state?
7 (Cellphone ringing.)
8 THE COURT: Excuse me, wherever that is coming from
9 and what person it's coming from, I would appreciate it if you
10 would just leave the courtroom.
11 THE WITNESS: Indeed it strengthens it. The
12 evolution in the early -- in the QCC curriculum is perfunctory,
13 brief. The new curriculum, it comes across in a more
14 integrated approach and it defines fully why the students need
15 to know why it's important in biology, life science.
16 Q. (By Mr. Gunn) At what grade level would you expect
17 students in Cobb schools to first be exposed to the definition
18 of what a scientific theory is?
19 A. I would guess it would come up in elementary school,
20 somewhere in elementary school. And by middle school they
21 ought to have that nailed down fairly well, that when we talk
22 about, I have a theory about my friend, is very different than
23 a scientific theory.
24 Q. So by the time they're in the tenth grade they should know
25 what a theory is?
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1 A. Or even by ninth grade, because all of our students take
2 it in ninth grade.
3 Q. The workshops that you mentioned, did Dr. McCoy that
4 appeared on behalf of the plaintiffs, did he present any of
5 those workshops?
6 A. Yes. Wes is well received in the county and he and I
7 talked at length about evolution and teaching of evolution and
8 I wanted to make sure that he was available. And he taught
9 several workshops, particularly the second year, maybe even
10 that spring that first year of 2003, I'd have to go back to the
11 records. But, yes, several times and he was certainly
12 available to the teachers as well.
13 Q. In any of these workshops did you ever encourage or did
14 anyone ever encourage anyone to bring religion into the
15 classroom?
16 A. No, absolutely not. The concern was always that indeed
17 evolution is part of any person's cosmology but the way you
18 flesh out that cosmology is a parental issue, is a church, is a
19 community issue; it is not a science issue, it's not to be used
20 in the science classroom.
21 Q. Okay. How many students attend Cobb schools?
22 A. I think there's 103,000 students.
23 Q. And it's been about, the sticker was first implemented in
24 2002, so it's been two full school years and part of one --
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. -- since the sticker? How many copies of just this
2 textbook, do you know?
3 A. I think there's 5900.
4 Q. 5900 in circulation?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. So they would have been --
7 A. And that's the students that are currently taking the
8 course right now. Now, the guess is that there's one or two in
9 each high school, but that would be a total of maybe 30 that
10 aren't in circulation. But for the most part they are in
11 circulation, students that are taking the full year course or
12 on the block schedule that have biology this fall.
13 Q. Okay. Your testimony that the only -- that students could
14 not avoid the sticker in this textbook, is that information
15 available to Cobb students online?
16 A. Yes. The board policy's online and regulations.
17 Q. I'm sorry, the textbook itself.
18 A. Oh, the textbook is available online as well.
19 Q. Where is that website located? Is that a Cobb website
20 or is that --
21 A. That would be a Prentice Hall website. And they also have
22 available the CD version and there are students that are
23 required to have a nontextbook version.
24 Q. Okay. Does the website have the sticker information in
25 it?
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1 A. Not that I've seen.
2 Q. Prentice Hall doesn't publish that sticker, do they?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So in two and a half years just this textbook, you've had
5 5,000, 6,000 each year that had access to the textbook. How
6 many complaints have you had in --
7 A. It's probably more than that. I'm sorry.
8 Q. How many complaints have you had in that time that
9 teachers were promoting religion in science class?
10 A. None.
11 Q. How many complaints have you had in that time that
12 teachers were teaching intelligent design in class?
13 A. None.
14 Q. How many complaints have you had that teachers were
15 teaching creationism in science class?
16 A. None.
17 Q. Do you get complaints about what happens in the classroom?
18 A. Oh, I do. Strange complaints from time to time.
19 Q. Have you had complaints that teachers were using these new
20 policies to allow students to discuss ideas about creationism
21 and intelligent design?
22 A. No. I think there's still an uneasiness with teachers
23 because of the national press of evolution, but no.
24 Q. Have you had anything expressed to you, whether you
25 considered it a complaint or not, anything written or verbal,
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1 formal or informal, that suggested any of those kinds of things
2 were going on in science class?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Not a single one?
5 A. No. If there were, I would have to respond. And if
6 there's a problem in the science classroom I will respond to
7 the parent or the student or the teacher or principal.
8 Q. Were you aware of that e-mail --
9 A. No.
10 Q. -- before it was presented this morning?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What would you have done about that?
13 A. I probably would have called her or talked to the
14 coordinator for that area and say, you know, find out what's
15 going on here and let me know.
16 Q. But what you heard was going on was --
17 A. Sounds good to me.
18 MR. GUNN: Thank you.
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. MANELY:
21 Q. Do I understand -- it is Dr. Stickel?
22 A. Yes. George is fine.
23 Q. In such a formal setting --
24 A. This is a very formal setting.
25 Q. Do I understand, Dr. Stickel, that you were not aware of
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1 that e-mail and the posting and the teacher's position at all?
2 A. I'm aware of -- no, of that e-mail, no, not at all.
3 Q. Okay, thank you. I understand that you have to deal with
4 students' questions; is that right --
5 A. In my current role?
6 Q. -- in the classroom?
7 A. As a teacher, certainly, yes.
8 Q. And there are religious questions as they come into the
9 classroom?
10 A. There are everything from: I'm having a baby, what do I
11 do, to religious questions to scientific questions.
12 Q. But you do not disclaim them, do you?
13 A. No, certainly not. Certainly not.
14 Q. And other theories do come up which conflict with other
15 religions, do they not?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. But you do not disclaim them, do you?
18 A. No. And we encourage the teachers to encourage the
19 student, if they're curious, to ask their parents or their
20 religious leader, community leader.
21 Q. You said that none of the texts that you proposed wound up
22 getting disclaimers in them; is that right?
23 A. Right, that I'm aware of, yes.
24 Q. So is it fair to say that this area of evolution which
25 suffered the imposition of all the stickers is not your area?
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1 A. As a teacher, no, I was on a different committee. Now
2 it's my area.
3 Q. It's not like you've published in this area, right?
4 A. I have. My publications have been dealing with learning
5 theory and they've been across the spectrum from philosophy to
6 science, chemistry, sociology.
7 Q. Maybe I didn't ask my question quite clearly enough.
8 A. I've not published on evolution specifically.
9 Q. Thank you. You said that by ninth grade students should
10 know the difference between theory and scientific theory?
11 A. Between theory and -- they should know what a scientific
12 theory is all about. Now, that does not mean we don't have
13 high school graduates that can't explain.
14 Q. If you had your druthers, I guess --
15 A. Right, the expectation would be that they would know.
16 Q. -- by the ninth grade a student could distinguish between
17 what is just a theory and what is scientific theory?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Is evolution not a scientific theory?
20 A. Evolution is indeed a scientific theory.
21 Q. Now, are you telling this Court that evolution does not
22 occur?
23 A. Oh, no, absolutely not. It occurs.
24 Q. Evolution does occur?
25 A. It does occur.
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1 Q. Goes on all the time?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. It is, as you heard Dr. Miller say, a fact as certain as
4 anything else?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Did I hear you correctly, and I thought you put it
7 well -- by the way, I enjoyed your opening statement about
8 being in the philosophy club and your use of the word
9 epistemology and cosmology. My undergraduate was in
10 philosophy, so it was old home week for me.
11 A. Good, good.
12 Q. When you said the way you flesh out that cosmology is a
13 parental issue and a church issue, correct?
14 A. Right. And I think they need to, my response has been, as
15 a teacher, as well as in my current position, that it's good to
16 have questions come up in a loving, supportive atmosphere
17 because we don't want students, when they go off in the
18 university, to have some professor, no offense to professors
19 present, but that discount the student, their family, their
20 belief. They need to know what the questions are ahead of time
21 and they need to be able to respond to them in a comfortable
22 setting.
23 Q. You were talking with your counsel, and just so I'm clear
24 about this, you are an employee of the Cobb County Board of
25 Education, aren't you?
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1 A. Yes, I am.
2 Q. That's who writes your paychecks?
3 A. Indeed.
4 Q. So you were talking with your counsel about your
5 involvement in the state curriculum; is that right?
6 A. Which counsel are you -- oh, yes.
7 Q. This counsel here, this attorney sitting here.
8 A. Yes, as opposed to other council members, okay, good.
9 Q. So you were involved with the whole hullabaloo when Kathy
10 Cox wanting to take out the language, take out the word
11 "evolution," right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It wasn't your idea, I'm not trying to put that on you.
14 A. No. What happened was, I'm a member of the Georgia
15 Science Supervisors Association, and the question came up there
16 before it ever hit the press in a big way. And probably in
17 January of, it may be this year, yes, I think they were voted
18 in in July of this year, so January of this year I became an
19 active member of the curriculum-writing committee.
20 Q. Okay. And so you were involved at some point when Ms. Cox
21 was saying she wanted to pull the word "evolution" entirely out
22 of the curriculum?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And she wanted to make it -- it was such a loaded word,
25 such a problematic word with people's religious beliefs that
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1 she wanted to make it "changes over time;" is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And, fortunately, you and a number of other people were
4 able to convince her to leave the word "evolution" in?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Is that probably the most recent history in the state of
7 Georgia except for this --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- dispute about how evolution has been treated by --
10 A. Right, I think so.
11 Q. Okay. So students could avoid the disclaimer if they're
12 carrying around a laptop or they go home and they use their
13 PCs?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Is the text not used in class?
16 A. It is from time to time. I would encourage teachers to
17 wean themselves from the text as much as possible, that the
18 text is a resource, as the Internet is a resource.
19 Q. So if they didn't want to use the text, which is given to
20 them by the school system, which they can carry around and
21 don't require a laptop, electricity access, et cetera, they
22 could go online?
23 A. Right. And I think typically there's a password involved.
24 Q. Okay. Did I understand you were talking -- you had a
25 better name for this but I was unable to write it down quickly
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1 enough, dinosaur theory?
2 A. The current theory on the behavior of dinosaurs.
3 Q. Do I understand correctly that that did not undermine the
4 theory of evolution?
5 A. No, not at all.
6 Q. And I was guessing that I knew what you were talking about
7 when you were talking about a very recent discovery that had to
8 do with brain size of --
9 A. The new, and I don't know the name of the pigmy person
10 that was one meter tall, about 39 inches tall, that was a
11 shock. The expectation was that there were not hominids that
12 were that small.
13 Q. I wrote down little people discovery.
14 A. Little people.
15 Q. You said that that won't discount evolution, will it?
16 A. No, no, it won't. What will happen is it will, certain
17 aspects of evolution will need to be reexamined, and as I
18 understand them, will deal with brain size and the ability to
19 function.
20 Q. But it doesn't call evolution into question?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did I understand correctly that you happened perchance to
23 be thumbing through a Sunday school book and you discovered a
24 place where evolution was called into question?
25 A. I was more than thumbing through, I was the teacher of the
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1 class. And it was a book by a lawyer or a law journalist,
2 Strobel, and I thought he did an excellent job on all the
3 chapters except the evolution chapter. And I would have asked
4 a whole different set of expert witnesses to be involved in
5 that chapter.
6 Q. But when you saw this in the Sunday school book, what you
7 did was you looked into it?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. You looked at these quotes that suggested to you evolution
10 was being undermined, you went to the source and found out, no,
11 it was misquoted by these religious folks?
12 A. Right. And so, likewise, and we want our students to do
13 that, so, likewise, as Ernest Meyer or Stephen J. Gould say, or
14 Haeckel say that we now disprove religion with evolution, those
15 are clearly outside the realm of logic.
16 Q. It's outside the realm of science, isn't it?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. Did I hear you correctly that the understanding of
19 evolutionary theory has changed over time?
20 A. It has.
21 Q. And that the most dramatic of these changes was, did you
22 say, Lamarck to Darwin?
23 A. Well, early on, Lamarck had a concept of how species were
24 created differently from one another and Darwin's theory
25 clearly disproves that.
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1 Q. So Darwin followed Lamarck?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And Darwin was 1859?
4 A. 1859 was published, probably hit the United States right
5 after the Civil War.
6 Q. So the most dramatic in changing of the understanding of
7 evolutionary theory, a change occurred prior to 1859?
8 A. In terms of the essence of the theory. Now, certainly
9 genetics and cell theory are understood in the 20th century
10 that were way beyond where Darwin was, so those get added to
11 the process.
12 Q. The sticker that the disclaimer is posted on, how is that
13 created?
14 A. It's interesting you called it a sticker, because that's
15 what we call it in the office, is a sticker.
16 Q. It sticks, right?
17 A. Right. Here's the background. My secretary, when we need
18 more, if the warehouse says we need to send out another hundred
19 books to such-and-such school, she'll pull out of the drawer a
20 computer-generated set of labels that she'll send off to the
21 schools.
22 Q. Sometimes people mass mail --
23 A. Exactly, same thing.
24 Q. -- literature and they can push, we --
25 A. Exactly.
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1 Q. Same kind of thing?
2 A. Right, exactly.
3 Q. I understand the textbooks were adopted in March; is that
4 right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. As a condition of putting the disclaimer in them; is that
7 right?
8 A. My understanding.
9 Q. Okay. But the textbooks weren't there at the time,
10 obviously?
11 A. Right. They came in sometime that summer.
12 Q. Okay. And, in fact, it was the science teachers to a
13 great extent, the week before classes started in August, that
14 were trying to get those stickers in; is that right?
15 A. Exactly. Human power is not available in the schools in
16 the summertime and so that was a time the teachers were very
17 cognizant of board policy.
18 Q. You've already answered a number of questions I was going
19 to ask you so I'm skipping.
20 A. Okay. I talk too much, I'm told by my family.
21 Q. We used to have something called QBEs, right?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And did I understand correctly it broke it down to
24 specific minutes how long you had to accomplish certain things?
25 A. That wasn't my understanding. But in general -- and the
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1 QCC is a curriculum and the expectation is how much, what is to
2 be covered, and you can divide that out into terms of how long
3 it takes students to understand genetics and cells and so on
4 and ecology.
5 Q. You've been sitting here at your counsel table through the
6 week, right?
7 A. Right, yes, sir.
8 Q. And you've heard this question come up very inartfully
9 several times, so let me try to put it so hopefully you know
10 what I'm asking about.
11 Specifically, say with the class in which that
12 biology text is used, how long during a given semester does a
13 professor have with that student in the science class?
14 A. In the science class, a block schedule, the teacher would
15 have them every day for 90 minutes, or some block schools are
16 every other day for 90 minutes; traditional schedules, about
17 50, 55 minutes per day for the year that the teacher would have
18 the student.
19 Q. Okay. How much per year?
20 A. It's about 55 minutes a day in a traditional school, every
21 day per year. Now, you have to subtract from that the testing
22 schedule, all the other things that impose themselves.
23 Q. And there's a good bit of testing that's going on now.
24 Every time I hear about education somebody's wanting to test
25 the kids more.
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1 A. So there's not as many hours as we think.
2 Q. Okay. And do I understand correctly, and feel free to
3 look at Defendants' 4 if you need to, in the biology text there
4 are ten units?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Comprising of 40 chapters?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And the evolution section is specifically Unit 5; is that
9 right?
10 A. Right, 101 pages, if I remember right.
11 Q. I imagine that for any teacher time is rather precious in
12 their classroom to get accomplished what they have to get
13 accomplished?
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. Please correct me if I am wrong, I understand the science
16 regards the natural world; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Supernatural is not science; is that right?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with supernatural,
21 it's just not science?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. So science does not deal with necromancy, for example?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. It doesn't deal with magic?
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1 A. Right.
2 Q. Doesn't deal with astrology?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. It doesn't deal with palm reading?
5 A. Right. Now, the question with astrology, some aspects of
6 what we understand about the universe were a set of data that
7 were collected by astrologers that become the first
8 astronomers.
9 Q. It doesn't deal with rune stones?
10 A. No.
11 Q. It doesn't deal with Ouija boards?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And it doesn't deal with creationism, does it?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember when you gave your affidavit in this case?
16 A. I do. I don't remember the date but I remember the
17 process.
18 Q. I don't want this to be a memory game.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. If you could look at paragraph 7 -- you might want to look
21 at the front, just make sure it's your affidavit. If you could
22 look at paragraph 7 for just a moment and refresh your
23 recollection about what you said in your affidavit.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. So let me ask you, when you say, one of the
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1 textbooks in which the statement was placed was a biology
2 textbook published by Prentice Hall. This textbook is the most
3 widely used biology text in Cobb schools, and you were a member
4 of the textbook adoption committee, so when you say: "In my
5 opinion this text offers a comprehensive perspective of current
6 science thinking regarding theory of origins" --
7 A. Right.
8 Q. I understand you correctly, right, that the text, not the
9 disclaimer that's in the front, is what you're referring to?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Did I hear you correctly, the students do come in
12 sometimes primed with questions that maybe their preachers had
13 posed the day before?
14 A. Indeed. Most of them aren't primed. I mean, they tend to
15 ignore teachers, parents, pastors equally.
16 Q. And are you aware that just as recently as yesterday folks
17 were handing out Gideon Bibles at Pope High School on campus?
18 A. No, I was not aware of that.
19 MR. GUNN: Your Honor --
20 MR. MANELY: Nothing further.
21 MR. GUNN: -- I don't see the relevance.
22 MR. MANELY: You don't see the relevance?
23 MR. GUNN: No, I don't see the relevance unless it
24 was to the --
25 THE COURT: Let's move on, your next question.
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1 MR. MANELY: Nothing further, sir.
2 MR. GUNN: No questions, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, you may step down.
4 Excuse me, Nicole, let me see you one minute.
5 (Pause in the proceedings.)
6 THE COURT: Is there any evidence in rebuttal?
7 MR. MANELY: No, sir, we've already handled that.
8 THE COURT: Thank you. We are going to bring this
9 trial to a conclusion on Friday morning beginning at 9:30, at
10 which time counsel will be allowed to make their closing
11 arguments. Prior to leaving I want to see counsel at the
12 bench. We'll be in recess.
13 (Following proceedings at bench.)
14 THE COURT: She just brought to my attention someone
15 brought a motion to quash and a motion to amend in the pretrial
16 order.
17 MR. MANELY: I think they're largely moot.
18 MR. GUNN: Yeah, we've covered that.
19 THE COURT: They are moot, they've been withdrawn?
20 MR. GUNN: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. I want to make a
22 decision on this case maybe within a month. And what I want
23 you all to do, you didn't do, I don't know why you didn't do
24 it, neither side submitted a proposed finding of facts and
25 conclusion of law and I want you to have that in Friday. Give
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1 it to me on Friday.
2 MR. MANELY: Yes, sir. Thank you, Your Honor.
3 MR. GUNN: Thank you.
4 THE COURT: Court will be in recess. Thank you.
5 (Proceedings adjourned at 12:10 p.m.)
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Amanda Lohnaas, Official Court Reporter
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT:
4 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA:
5
6 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages, 1 through
7 518, are a true and correct copy of the proceedings in the case
8 aforesaid.
9 This the 4th day of February, 2005.
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14 Amanda Lohnaas, CCR-B-580, RMR, CRR
Official Court Reporter
15 United States District Court
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